Tawny Lara: Peripeteia Podcast
[00:00:00]
Heather Lowe: Peripeteia listeners, I'm excited today for our guest, TNI. Laura, I'm sure that you know her. She's, let's see. We've connected on a lot of things before. In fact, you do a module in my dare to Dream Launch Your Business Course. We've been. Known of each other from social media, probably for a long time.
We're friends with some of the same people Chris Marshall and Nicole from After Magazine. Now we're friends with each other, but you guys might know her as the sober sex expert. she has reported on sober, sober, curious lifestyles, non-alcoholic beverages since 20 15, 10 years girl, way back when.
And she's the author of Dry Humping. Which is a guide to dating relating and hooking up without booze. And also the co-author of the Sobriety deck, which is a deck of cards, which I just saw in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, out in the wild. I was so excited about that. It made me so happy, Tawny, because I had been to these little lake boutiques so many times and it's so full of all the dish towels [00:01:00] about. Mama slay, drink this and drink that. And at the lake we drink this and that. Finally, after all these years to see the sobriety deck made me so happy. And you also are the founder of a non-alcoholic spirit called Parentheses. You are a podcaster, the Recovery Rocks Podcast with your friend and partner Lisa Smith, and now you're teaching virtual writing courses about publishing, media strategy, all that stuff.
And mostly you're an exhausted. Capricorn,
Tawny Lara: yeah that's me.
Heather Lowe: so yeah. So here we are. So this is great. Today we're gonna talk about, which I'm excited because most of my podcast are just for like women in general, but this one is a little bit more specific to women because I also recruit coaches. And train coaches and teach coaches. So this one is a little more specific to people who are in the public eye or want to be in the public eye or have a business or a passion that includes influencing or selling or PR strategy or putting yourself out there [00:02:00] and what that does to a person and what boundaries are appropriate.
And I looking forward to hearing more of your experience. So let's start. So way back when I know you were a little girl who wrote like letters to the editor, to your.
Tawny Lara: little girl. Yeah, I was I was a little girl, so yeah, I've been. I've been a writer. I feel like I've been a writer my whole life. I've been a professional writer the last 10 years. But to what you're talking about, I used to write for my local newspaper, way back in Waco, Texas, early two thousands, I was writing they, they had a teen section to encourage young people to write op-eds.
And I wrote a lot of. V I guess ahead of my time, I wrote about legalizing cannabis. I wrote about body image, I wrote about legalizing gay marriage. All I wrote about these really complex topics at 14,
Heather Lowe: We would've been friends as little girls, first of
Tawny Lara: yeah.
Heather Lowe: I would love that kind of person and I [00:03:00] would also, have added to those articles. But you were somebody even from a young age who wasn't afraid to put your voice out publicly.
Tawny Lara: Yeah I don't know where that came from. I guess there, there is a part of me that. I feel like it came from, I'm an only child who, I'm just like, I'm used to having the eyes on me, the attention on me. I should say only child with no cousins, so raised by a single mom. It was like
Heather Lowe: I'm the only
Tawny Lara: I
Heather Lowe: raised by a single mom, but I have all these siblings and like half siblings steps, whatever.
Tawny Lara: would, I.
Heather Lowe: is the same.
Tawny Lara: I would give anything for a sibling. I'm not kidding. But yeah, you get it. Big and only child. It's a very specific experience. A lot of, I like, I'm just, I was used to having all of the attention, all of the eyeballs of the family. 'cause I was the only kid, only grandkid, only niece. I learned that [00:04:00] when I spoke, people listened.
And I guess the, some confidence came from that. And I'll also say, maybe you can relate to this being raised by a single mom. I learned how to be really independent and vocal, and she's rare. She's a very strong woman, and I learned that strength from her. I, she always used her voice to advocate for injustice.
And watching her do that showed me the importance of using your voice to advocate for injustice to speak up for those who. Either can't speak or their voices are ignored, and I, that's a big part of my voice today.
Heather Lowe: I love it, and it says something about. Your family, that your voice was heard even as a child be, that you did have, you had the attention of the adults around you, but they were also listening to you.
That might not always be the case. So that's cool. And that has developed in you. Yeah.
Somebody who's not afraid to speak out loud and to say something out loud. So tell me [00:05:00] about your sobriety journey. Were you out loud about that from the very beginning or were you wobbly questioning privately before you started to share that more
Tawny Lara: Yeah. It's, I like this question because I now teach courses on how to be a public figure without. Losing yourself, you know how to have boundaries in it. Because I did not,
Heather Lowe: Yourself,
Tawny Lara: because I had to learn this for myself. We,
Heather Lowe: client.
Tawny Lara: We talked about, I've been doing this since 2015.
This is when Instagram was like really new. This is before content creator and influencer and hashtags. None of that was a thing yet, or I guess we had hashtags, but it was a very different time. And that was the time that I decided to reevaluate my relationship with alcohol. I just moved from Texas to New York City to pursue writing.
In 2015, in June of 2015 and shortly after I moved here, I decided to take a year [00:06:00] off of drinking and I started a blog again. 2015. Blogging was super cool. Everyone Ha, I start.
Heather Lowe: so. I still think it's cool between,
Tawny Lara: It is cool. Thank you.
Heather Lowe: to writer, like blogs saved me
Tawny Lara: Yes.
Heather Lowe: share them and I'm like, maybe this is old news, but I would spend my nights perusing blogs with my glass of wine in my hand
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: Like it was exactly what started, planted the seed of what was to come for me.
So I'm, I
Tawny Lara: Yeah,
Heather Lowe: I'm an old gal, but I still think blogs are cool.
Tawny Lara: you're completely right. Blogs are cool and I would, without getting sidetracked, we could talk about newsletters here in a minute about how I think newsletters are really resurrecting blog culture.
Heather Lowe: Yes.
Tawny Lara: But I started a blog called Sobriety Tea Party, where I documented my sober journey for, again, this was just a social experiment.
I was just turning 30 and I was like, what if I don't drink for this whole year and I document it publicly? So that's what I did.
Heather Lowe: It. Was it anonymous?
Tawny Lara: no, not at [00:07:00] all.
Heather Lowe: with, did you share it with your family and friends, inner circle, the social media that you had at that time? Or was it just like something you were doing on the side?
Tawny Lara: I started this blog and then I, made a couple posts on Instagram and I shared the blog with a couple friends and family, and I shared it on Facebook and I was just, again, social media was pretty new back then. I, we didn't really know. Viral wasn't a word.
Heather Lowe: that you were
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: it on? Okay.
Tawny Lara: So I started a sePeripeteiate account called Sobriety Tea Party, which is something I advise against.
I don't recommend starting sePeripeteiate accounts for creative endeavors unless it's a physical product. But no, I shared it to anyone that would listen really, and a lot it gained traction pretty quickly because there weren't a lot of people talking about it back then in this way. I didn't wanna, I didn't do aa, I didn't go that route.
I was just like, Hey. I'm 30, I drink too much. I drink until I black out. I wanna figure out why. And that approach [00:08:00] really resonated with people. And that's how I connected with, all the people that we like our mutual friends. That's how I met you. And it was a really, I would say it was a very positive experience and I, I don't have any regrets, but there's definitely some things that I would do differently.
And that's really. The approach that I take when I do work with clients and teach classes of here's what I did, here's what worked, and here's what I would do differently.
Heather Lowe: And also it's a totally different time, 10 years later. I love that though. My one year experiment of not drinking and I'm gonna share with you what's going on with me, right? It reminds me of one of my favorite. books and movies, Julia and Julia,
Make a, like a dish every day of the year or whatever. We love that kind of container of one year and share your personal experience and again. traditional routes of AA or whatever, and without saying what's gonna happen when the year's over you haven't decided to quit the rest of your life, or you haven't declared yourself a sober person necessarily.
It's like you're just trying this out. What a safe [00:09:00] entry point for everyone. And we're all curious okay, you go first. What happened? Do I wanna go next? So I love that. So cool. So you met friends, you got followers, you got Traction, sobriety is now more like a business type account, right?
Versus your personal account. Were Did you have a sePeripeteiate identity from your, like sober life, creator life that you were starting to develop from your personal life? Did those feel like different things? Did
Tawny Lara: I think
Heather Lowe: like a turning point?
Tawny Lara: this is, the answer to this is really like the answer is no, and I, that's something I would do differently today. I had no boundaries. I shared everything.
Heather Lowe: yeah.
Tawny Lara: this was also, I was doing this while building a career as a freelance writer. And 10 years ago it was a time of, the personal essay boom.
The trauma porn boom, where, you know. People are writing these deeply [00:10:00] vulnerable personal essays for like $50 and just to get their names out there,
Heather Lowe: Yeah.
Tawny Lara: And so there's a lot I definitely exploited myself for sure. And it's really complex. And that is the beginning of the, the identity crisis that I've.
I'm on the other end of it now, but it's the la since my book came out, it's definitely been Identity Crisis Central. Over here.
Heather Lowe: Okay. This is the juice.
Tawny Lara: This is the juice.
Heather Lowe: what we're here to talk about. Yeah. I hear you. When I started ditched the drink. no followers and no email subscribers. I sub, I included my two other email. I started sending newsletters to my two other email addresses. My husband, my mom, and a couple friends who were not gonna be ditching the drink. I was like, Hey, can I put you on my newsletter list? And then I was writing to no one. And, started with nothing, no followers, the whole thing, right? Like we all [00:11:00] do. was I too was like what do I post? And this is before I even got certified as a coach, right? I was just gonna try to help women like me.
And I had no idea what to post, but I had kids that was my life. So I was, and they're cute and they're funny and they got curly hair. Like you could curly hair like you, like they're darling. But very quickly I was like. If this grows. So I would say one tip for somebody would be maybe like, start with the end in mind, right?
If this grows to where you want it to, I realized ditch the drink is my journey and these little kids are gonna turn into teenagers who are gonna turn into college age students likely. And what do they want out there about them and what do I want out there about
Tawny Lara: Yes.
Heather Lowe: and what is their choice and what is mine?
And all of a sudden I was like, you know what? I need to find some other content because my kids are not gonna be the content and I don't have their approval or agreement in that. And they want now might not be what they want for the future. And I'm just gonna leave them out of it. This [00:12:00] is my thing that I'm doing and I'm gonna leave them outta it.
And I have, and I talk about parenting. People know, I think that I have two beautiful daughters, but I don't put their pictures on my my business. Forums and I can talk about things and I can talk about them, but I really have a protection about them. And I would say it doesn't matter when your followers or your husband and your mom and your two friends, but if you're looking to grow, if you're looking to grow a business or an audience, do you want the whole world to have that kind of access?
And it's hard to believe that you will grow when you're just starting. But we have, we've multiplied, I'm not the most popular person on social media, but I still have thousands and thousands of followers,
Tawny Lara: that, and it's such a weird time because, I was actually talking to Trisha Lewis, a recovery happy hour. I was talk, I was talking to her about this how like we're not famous by any means,
If we go, if you and I went to a sobriety conference.
Heather Lowe: Yes.
Tawny Lara: would know who we were,
Heather Lowe: Yeah.
Tawny Lara: So it's
Heather Lowe: if we're doing our job.
Tawny Lara: yeah.
So it's it's this very[00:13:00]
Heather Lowe: Yeah.
Tawny Lara: niche public being, being a public figure in a very hyper-specific space. And I think it's worth acknowledging how complex that is.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. We are not famous, right? I don't walk around with a bodyguard or anything, but I'll tell you one thing, you probably have a experience like this too. When I go to a sober specific event, as you said, like I would hope people would recognize me and my husband will say something, and I'm like if they don't know me here, then I'm not doing my job. in a local
Tawny Lara: Yeah, it's fair.
Heather Lowe: like I hope they know who I am because I'm shouting from the rooftops all the time. But I went to a country concert at the United Center, which is where the Chicago Polls play, and I got recognized there and it was like this had nothing to do with sobriety and that's a huge venue. And it, it was like, oh my God. Or sometimes I'll go shopping with my kids, like to the
And somebody be like, I saw you at Dick's, or [00:14:00] whatever.
Tawny Lara: Yeah. No I've had. I've had moments like that too, of someone recognized me on the subway Hey your stories really helped me. I'm like, whoa, okay, cool. And then recently, actually at a restaurant, I was in the bathroom washing my hands, and this woman next to me goes, are you Tawny?
And I'm like, yeah. And she's oh, I, I really liked your book, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, all right. Like the, it's,
Heather Lowe: Great.
Tawny Lara: it is what it is, and. We put ourselves out there
Heather Lowe: Yeah,
Tawny Lara: professionally.
Heather Lowe: We think about even in our stories, what we're sharing, this or that. And it's yeah it's pers, it's professional and it's personal and we're letting people in. So how did you know you were exploiting yourself? That is such like a huge word and it actually does describe it perfectly. Tell me more about that journey of you're putting yourself out there, you're being vulnerable, you're sharing, you might be sharing some of your trauma. You're also trying to get recognized as a writer, you wanna connect people. Your intentions, I am guessing are [00:15:00] so like. Let's talk about this. Let's remove the shame from this and let's talk about it. Bring it out into the open, and then come to find out later when you look back, like I was basically fileting myself for exposing myself for all, and maybe general public didn't earn that. How did
Tawny Lara: Oh yeah, so it's, there's, it's two parts. I think I, the seed was planted about five years ago when I was working on my book, when I was working on dry humping. It was initially, I was initially writing it as a memoir, and while, a big part of writing a book is w. Taking writing classes and workshopping your ideas and your pages with editors and classmates and getting feedback on your writing.
And I remember one time, I'm in a room with a, I'm in a class with 10 other students and a teacher and we're all giving each other feedback. And it was my turn and we had just read the essay that I submitted and some, and [00:16:00] people. Let me back up. Dry humping is about sober sex and dating.
So the memoir was about sober sex and dating, so I was,
Heather Lowe: only is this alcohol like a tricky, touchy,
Tawny Lara: yeah.
Heather Lowe: it's actually also sex.
Tawny Lara: Yes. Sex coming out as bisexual, there's a lot of stuff in there, and. I was writing about it from a first person perspective because it's a memoir, right? And then the questions that the fellow classmates were asking me were very appropriate because we're workshopping a memoir. But I realized I didn't wanna answer those questions.
I realized, I initially, in my mind, I'm like, why would she ask me something like that? And I'm like because you just read an essay about faking orgasms, so you opened the door to that. That was when, that was actually the beginning of me shifting the concept of my book to not being a memoir and actually focusing more on my journalistic [00:17:00] research, where the book as it exists today on the shelves of bookstores, it's not the Tawny story, it is my years of research as a journalist reporting on sober sex and dating and liquid courage.
And yes, you definitely get my story in there. But it's much more about cultural criticism, interviews, research, stuff like that. So that was really the first part. And then after the book came out and, going on a book tour and just again, when you have a chapter about faking orgasms or masturbation and, stuff like that.
You're gonna get some interesting questions on the book tour, and I just realized, I was just like, I don't regret it, but I was just like, why did I, why am I talking about this?
Heather Lowe: Open myself
Tawny Lara: yes.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, so I'm working on a book too, and it's very therapeutic. And then it's do I wanna talk about that or not? And then I'm like, [00:18:00] why would somebody do this? Why would I
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: People are gonna disagree. There's gonna be criticism. Not everyone's gonna like it.
You're gonna hurt feelings. Like there, somebody has a different perspective of that, of course. So you're really, you are opening yourself up to a lot of exposure, including criticism. Ted advice, shaming.
Tawny Lara: Other people's experiences like talking about my sexual assault in the book has resulted in many people. Talking to me virtually or in line at a book signing, telling me about when they were raped. And I'm like, I actually talked to my therapist about it. I'm like, how do I, what do I say when someone tells me that they were raped and my book helped them?
Like what? What is, what do I do? And she's they just wanna be heard. And they just wanna, they just want you to know that you helped them. They're not expecting you to give them advice or anything. You can just say, thank you so much for sharing that with me. I'm glad that my story was helpful to you, [00:19:00] and that advice was super helpful.
Because, again, it's there's this, it's confusing because you put a book or, a piece of art, whether it's a book or a, a painting or whatever, and people are gonna have a reaction to it. And at what I don't know the answer to this, but at what point is to what extent does the artist owe more to the viewer?
I wrote the book, what more do I owe the Reader? And I don't know the answer to that. That's something I'm still figuring out.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. And do you have capacity to receive that message when you receive it? Because that does something to you, right? Even energetically empathetically. Are you in a, do you have capacity to receive that message right now? And. Of course you wanna be helpful and share stories and also then what, like you said, it feels like a responsibility of sorts that you perhaps aren't exactly prepared for.
Tawny Lara: No and I will [00:20:00] say going on that book tour and doing lots of podcast interviews, I'm just, I am so glad that book was not a memoir. I am so glad I'm because. I was able, and I'm still, I'm able to talk about my research as a journalist. I'm not talking about, salacious sex stories.
That's never really been my beat, but just being a sex writer, people are gonna ask stuff like, what's the craziest sex position you've ever been in? I'm like, real, that's what you wanna talk about right now. So it's but it's again, pe when you write a book called Dry humping, people are gonna have interesting questions.
And I
and I've learned that, and and I think a, I'm realizing this as I'm talking to you. I think a really, the nail in the coffin of the whole, I'm exploiting myself thing was I've been off Instagram for about a year now. I don't have it on my phone. I have an assistant and she posts on my behalf, very sporadically.
But removing myself from Instagram [00:21:00] really has given me the chance to reevaluate everything and how like Instagram was took up so much. Of my energy and brain space and comparing my body to other people, comparing my career to other people, like it really feels like a second sobriety of removing this highly addictive app from my phone.
It's been very I guess sobering. It's been very humbling. And now I'm in a place where I'm very happy writing my newsletter. I'm very happy teaching doing tastings of my non-alcoholic drink. Everything that I do now, I'm not talking about myself anymore. I'm talking about research. I'm talking about publishing.
I'm talking about media strategy. I'm talking about drink recipes, and. No longer, I guess it's like over the last two years, I'm no longer the [00:22:00] product. My book is the product. The drink is the product. The card deck is the product. My classes are the product, so I don't have to exploit myself anymore, if that makes sense.
Heather Lowe: So much sense. And that's so interesting because as a business coach, it coach coaches like, I am my product. It's me, it's my personality, it's my warmth, it's my vibe, it's my, it's my, actually a lot of people choose me because of my Midwest accent.
Tawny Lara: I love it.
Heather Lowe: It's my, so it's like what makes people choose me versus somebody else is me.
It's, there's a lot of sober coaches out there, but there's not, nobody else is me. So I am my product. So there's a vulnerability in that which you now have a sePeripeteiateness from. You now have a buffer of, yeah. It's not you. They don't like, it's your drink. It's not you, it's the deck or
Tawny Lara: yes.
Heather Lowe: the book.
They have a criticism of the book, but you can sePeripeteiate that from yourself because it's not you. Okay. And Instagram has changed. It started as like a place for you to share your personal experience, and then as your audience grew. [00:23:00] You maybe decided. I don't want the whole everybody to know some of these personal things about me. But also Instagram is different now because there's content creators. People's whole job is great content going up against you. A writer whose job is to have words, right?
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: not the best graphic or maybe not the best dance or caption or, and everything is curated now with a hashtag and a. A trend and a, whatever. Plus for me, who's still on Instagram, it's probably five sponsored posts in between every person that I actually wanna follow. So unless you're, it's a pay to play sort of thing, right? Unless somebody is seeking you out, specifically, you're bumped down if you're not paying, probably most of the
Tawny Lara: Which is which, I knew that of course on some level, but again, removing myself from Instagram has really showed me. By example of [00:24:00] like how pay to play all of this is I will occasionally get on Instagram from my desktop just to check dms or do research or something. And then I'll scroll for 20 seconds and I'm like.
These aren't even people I follow. These are just ads. These are content creators like I got on Instagram to stay in touch with people and stay in touch with my friends. Like I'm not here to be sold products. And it really, someone, I forget who it was, but someone described Instagram as a, it just feels like you're at a digital shopping mall.
And that's exactly, I think that's the perfect description. It's I'm not trying to go to the mall right now. I'm trying to see what my friends are up to. That's not what Instagram is anymore. So I'm doing this crazy thing, Heather. I'm doing this thing where I'm actually just like picking up the phone and calling my friends.
I'm not scheduling connection times in a Google calendar. I'm literally just picking up my phone and saying, Hey girl, how are you? [00:25:00] And people are loving it. Let me just say.
Heather Lowe: wow, that is so aggressive, Tony. No, I love it. I actually tell my husband one thing I value about people, I say she's a pick up the phone kind of person, and so am I am a really good phone talker, so
Tawny Lara: Yeah,
Heather Lowe: I love people that, that aren't, that don't text like. Are you available? When can we get to da?
Just the
Tawny Lara: no, just call me. Just fucking call me.
Heather Lowe: literally s dialling and going I've got five minutes. I'm headed here. Let's chat. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Instagram is, you're being sold to the entire time and you're also you're being. You're being sold to. There's so many things to compare to, but also for people like us that are really authentic, it doesn't really work because we should be doing the things that are on trend. It goes towards trending audio, trending reels, trending things, new ways to show Instagram. And you and I are [00:26:00] artists. All of us have a creative part of us, or an artist part of us. And writing is our art mostly, right? And we wanna share. real time, something we're thinking of, or we wanna connect about an issue that's happening right now. And it's not on trend, and we're not putting it in the right format to gain the followers. So I always I use it for my, I always say it's for me, and there's a business way to do it. If you want to follow these steps, do it for that. If I follow those steps and do it for that, it doesn't work for me.
I have to be having fun. I have to be making real connections
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: I don't care about the rest. I, you know what? It surprises people. I don't look at insights. I don't look at who liked that, who didn't. If this grew, if it didn't, when people stopped looking, I don't care. 'cause I didn't do it for them, I did it for me.
Tawny Lara: Good for you.
Heather Lowe: because I had something that I wanted to express and it will hit and land. Where it does, but it's, I had something I wanted to express. So you [00:27:00] write a book wr? Why write, why anything? you have to, right? Like for you your creative spirit, you have to, you were born to do that, so you can't just hide away in a hole would be the other option, right?
Not do it. So you want to do it, you have to put yourself out there. It is your calling to have a voice, you have to have the right boundaries, it sounds to protect yourself being an out there kind of person. a fair
Tawny Lara: Very much and for me, I have found those boundaries are best in a newsletter I like. I like writing a newsletter. I like writing. I'm a writer. And I've also found that, you can take your newsletter subscribers with you everywhere you go. You like, whereas I have 12,000 Instagram followers, I can't take them with me.
I don't use Instagram, so they don't see my stuff. That's just how it is. But with your newsletter subscribers, I you're building this list [00:28:00] and right now I'm on Substack, but maybe I'll leave Substack and go somewhere else and I'll just export my new my list and take it with me and. I love that. I think that is the best thing you could do as an artist, as an entrepreneur, as a creative person.
Like when I work, when I am working with people on media strategy, when I'm working with people on creating content. I don't do any Instagram advising at all. I tell people, don't waste your time or your money on Instagram unless you're going to go all in. And the going all in means paid ads, pay to play all this bullshit that I don't support.
I think the best thing you could do is build your newsletter list. You have full creative control of it. You're not having to. Instagram, there's the character count, there's a limit. There's your photos have to be a certain size, like you said, the trending sounds, and it's like, how is this creative, like literally, how is this me being creative, like [00:29:00] I have to put me as a writer, as a cultural critic, as a, anthropologist.
How am I supposed to distill all of this? Into a character count or a picture or an infographic, because that's what people wanna receive. And I love what you said about how you don't check analytics, you don't check insights because you're making stuff you wanna make, you're doing the thing you wanna do.
And that's so great. I didn't do that. I was very caught up in the analytics and the performance and the likes and all of that. And it became this whole secondary addiction for me. And it wasn't. Serving my creative, my creativity at all. Actually it was doing, it was actually doing a disservice to me.
When you look at all different mediums for art, if you're, to be really simple, like if you're painting on a canvas, if you're painting on a small canvas, you have a small amount of space. If you're painting on a big canvas, you have a lot of space. So I really think of Instagram as telling a story on a really small [00:30:00] canvas without nuance, there's no room for nuance, there's not a lot of room for self-expression, and especially if you have to, whatever I'm creating has to also be like 80% trends and insights and what other people want from me.
Heather Lowe: Right.
Tawny Lara: that's just, again, that's like self, that just feels like self more self exploitation.
It just doesn't feel right for me anymore.
Heather Lowe: I would, I wanna add to that and say you take the thing, you wanted to create your idea, and then you turn it into trending audio and real and the graphic and the whatever. Then you put it into AI and ask them to optimize this for a keyword and SEO. And then what you post is exactly everything everybody else has posted and your idea and your UN is not there.
It's been completely washed out by that time. And what you're sharing is the exact same thing as everyone's sharing. And in this [00:31:00] sober sphere, it is such an echo chamber, and you've seen that in your last 10 years, and so have I. It wasn't like that when we started, and I'm not like a curmudgeon like, oh, the good old days or anything
Tawny Lara: Back in my day.
Heather Lowe: Exactly. Like we can evolve, we can change. It's different. I get that for sure. But it's all, it is all the same. It's all been said before. All the ideas have already been said before and none of them are original and none of them are yours. They're all just repeating what somebody else is. So then you fill your feed with that and it beco and then whoever is doing the best content creating, I always say this too, is like of likes and follows doesn't equal what a good coach I am. doesn't mean I'm good at coaching. That means I'm good at marketing.
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: Marketing and content creation and coaching are two sePeripeteiate skill sets. They're not the same. And being a good content creator or marketer doesn't mean you're a good coach. And a good coach isn't necessarily a good content creator, marketer.
So you just have to ask yourself, what am I using this for? What is the strategy? What works for me? What aligns with my [00:32:00] energy? And certainly if you have business goals or growth or it's a, you wanna reach an audience or you wanna get people, fantastic. And also. them over to your newsletter, right?
Because that is a group. If especially if they pay, then they have, mine is free. Yours probably paid that. You have paid access or you're actually giving an email address. You're giving something of yourself to gain access. There's a little bit of a gate there and it's
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: exposing yourself to the whole world.
It's a gate to come in and an agreement of here in exchange for my email address, here's some information about
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: You get a step closer to me and then from there, a step closer. Closer, right? Like I have a community where I'm sharing all the time. You don't get that on Instagram. You get that when you come in and be part of my group.
So what boundaries do you recommend for folks? Get off social media. It's ruining your life. Start a newsletter. Share yourself there. What else would you say? And especially as an author, how do you protect yourself?
Tawny Lara: It's, I. I'm not [00:33:00] anti-social media for other people. I'm very anti. For me, I think the way you described it was really smart of you're able to understand that it's like the way that this real performed does not have anything to do with me. It has nothing to do with me at all. It's the algorithm, it's how it all works.
So I think if you could treat social media like that. Fine. Have fun. Let it be there. Let it be your thing. Let it be this free place that you can advertise your services. On that note, I would, I think a newsletter is definitely worth more people's time because the way that algorithm buries posts.
You can make the best reel in the world, but unless you're paying to boost it, it's only gonna be seen by maybe 10% of your followers. Whereas on a newsletter, ev, even if you only have 50 subscribers, all 50 of them will see that email. [00:34:00] They may not read it, they may delete it, but they will at least see the email.
This is what I mean when I said the value in creating a newsletter as opposed to social media. I spent hours of just hours and money at just making Instagram content and getting nothing in return for it. And with a newsletter, it's very different because you're owning all of that content.
You're not, every time I post on Instagram, it feels like I'm just putting another dollar in Zuckerberg's pocket,
Heather Lowe: totally. Yeah. And it, I feel like it's woo, look at me. Who's ever loudest? Whoever can make the most noise or what you said, trauma, whoever can get you closest to like, I'm not willing to be like going to the bathroom while I'm doing a story. So also there's places in my house.
Tawny Lara: I love that about you.
Heather Lowe: a classic girl.
I'm a classic girl. Okay. No, there's like places in my house maybe where I will video, but also there's places where I won't, you don't get a [00:35:00] tour of every single part of me in my life. But if you, so it's just like splashy loud, it's attention seeking, it's click bait, it's whatever you want it to be.
But a newsletter is come sit down, have a cup of tea,
Tawny Lara: Yes. That's a great, that's a really good.
That's a really good way to put it. And I'll say. I get more people signing up for my classes, buying my drink, buying my book from newsletters, because you could actually put links in the newsletter. As soon as we get an order for parentheses, I'm able to track.
Oh, cool. That came from them clicking on my newsletter.
Heather Lowe: Yeah.
Tawny Lara: as soon as I get someone to sign up for one of my courses, I'm like, oh, cool. I just put this newsletter out. It works. People are actually reading this it really, I guess the best way to boil it down is when it comes to boundaries and being a public figure, you really just have to ask yourself what you are comfortable with.
Be aware of what is quote unquote expected. Of you [00:36:00] as a public figure. And that means yeah, it's expect, if you wanna have a book deal, it is expected that you do have some sort of platform. Doesn't have to be Instagram, but you do have to be known as the expert on your fee in your subject. This is for nonfiction of course, but however you feel comfortable establishing yourself as an expert on something, do that.
Because if it, if you're. Making a reel and you hate doing it, it's very obvious. No one likes watching those videos. But if you're writing a newsletter and it really brings you joy and only 50 people read it, those are 50 people that will actually buy your book because they connected with what you just wrote.
Because like you just said, you invited them over for tea as opposed to yelling at the.
Heather Lowe: obviously
Tawny Lara: Yes. Sobriety as opposed to like standing in the middle of town square, yelling hey, anyone?
Heather Lowe: Totally. Yeah. I love it. You brought up another good point that we haven't touched on yet that I alluded to when I said your following doesn't if you're good [00:37:00] at marketing or content creating doesn't mean you're a good coach and vice versa. The, and I talked with Trisha Lewis on this.
We were both on recovery, happy hour in her popup episode is the other connection that of course,
Tawny Lara: yes.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. Two guests, me and you. But the other thing is. Followers doesn't equal money necessarily. And you can have a very popular post that hundreds of thousands of people viewed and liked and shared, and you can make zero sales from that. to your point, you can have 50 people on your newsletter list and make sales from that. You can grow your business with less. So that there's such an illusion out there too that. Followers equals money. And also I always say not an ambassador or an affiliate for things, so my job, I don't make money being on Instagram.
I make money coaching people from
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: right. So I don't have a buy-in to post at this time or that time, or be sharing this. Or that, or whatever. I am a I did get asked for [00:38:00] Jones Road makeup and I do love them, so I do share an affiliate for
Tawny Lara: Ooh.
Heather Lowe: They all get free makeup. You get free makeup, I get free makeup.
It's like the best thing ever. So I do recommend them, but that's, I don't spend my time doing that. I'm not really like a makeup. And it's not one of many things that I am promoting. I'm only promoting my coaching services, so I don't get paid to be on Instagram to promote other people's stuff.
I don't get paid to have content, and I'm not being judged and evaluated and measured my success by how many views I get. By anybody besides me, I'm not getting paid for views, right? So views doesn't equal money. Do your thing with your people. Take care of yourself. Have your newsletter list. Get the people closer, connect with them and sell your stuff that way, right?
Create a following of people that are interested in you, and it might not be big and it can still be very profitable.
Tawny Lara: Yeah I think social media has completely destroyed our perception of self. I know that's a big [00:39:00] statement, but. So many clients and students are just like, like they have the best book idea or the best article that they're trying to find placed or whatever, and they're like, I only have a thousand followers.
And I'm like, that doesn't matter. That does not matter. Like again, people, let's say talking about publishing here, you're trying to get a book deal. They just wanna know. Platform. They wanna know who you know. Sure. Having a million Instagram followers might look nice, but Instagram's been around long enough that publishers know 1 million Instagram followers does not equal 1 million book sales.
So it's not as. It's not as important as it used to be, I'll say. But you know what I like to do with clients is sit down with them and just talk to them about their body of work, their professional connections, their colleagues. I had a call this morning actually, she's like another, like she has a great book [00:40:00] idea only has only quote, unquote, only has a thousand Instagram followers.
But then I start digging. I'm like what about your professional connections? And then she just starts listing all these people that she's worked with. In the past her current colleagues, and I'm like, this is your platform. This is what publishers wanna see. They don't like Instagram.
Following is like the tiniest part of it. So I think that would be the takeaway for your listeners is w what? Who else have you met in your life that is supportive of your creative work?
Like, and it could be, it doesn't have to be famous people. Sure if you know a famous person, great.
But like when I started digging in with her, she's oh yeah, I know this editor at Vogue and I know this creative director at Chanel. And I'm like, girl, like this is way more important than Instagram followers and.
Heather Lowe: followers can be bought, is the other thing I wanna say. You see somebody with a million followers and they have four posts and they're not [00:41:00] famous celebrities. They've been bought. That's an illusion.
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: bought those files. That's not even true. And to that thing about what success is you have to make seven figures and that's what success is.
When I talk to people, I'm like. If they're gonna do group coaching, how many people do you want? I want 50. Would you be happy with 10? I would be so happy with 10. I'm like,
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: then let's go for 10. Get real, every, everybody you're seeing on there who's making seven figures by twirling in front of the ocean and never working. That's an all, there's a lot of illusion with that. And I also twirl in front of the ocean and don't work. I have autonomy in my schedule. I just got back from Florida. It's beautiful. I was at the Ritz. How lovely. But that's one piece of my life.
Tawny Lara: Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Lowe: So I think there's a lot of illusion when it comes to social following, and I agree.
Your
Tawny Lara: I.
Heather Lowe: connections, people that have been there, your work connections, you have an audience. It doesn't have to be on Instagram, and you have bigger buy-in from people that are closer to you. It's like circle, circle, circle, right? A closer and closer inner circle [00:42:00] and appealing people that are willing to go to bat for you.
Show up to your book tour. Show up to your,
Tawny Lara: Exactly. I think we are just all so obsessed with this digital curation of our lives that we have completely forgotten the value of human beings that we. Know that we have worked with in the past that are also doing cool creative stuff that are supportive of what you're doing and you're supporting what they're doing.
We need to get back to, IRL my husband often jokes that the next TikTok is IRL and I think he's right. We're getting sick of all of this content. We are starved for embodied. Connections with each other and, whether that's personally or professionally, but you just you don't need Instagram or social media as much as you have been conditioned to think that you do.
I'll say, since I got off Instagram a year ago, my coaching business has exponentially grown. My classes [00:43:00] have filled up, i'm doing so much better professionally because I'm not diluting my output. I'm putting all of my energy into the things that I really want to do instead of feeling like I have to have a presence across multiple platforms.
Heather Lowe: And you could do it off the grid. That's so good. And it's better for your mental health, I'm imagining, and you're creating content that matters to you versus a dumb Instagram post that also is gonna be gone in 20 seconds.
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: If your newsletter lives longer, your book lives longer. This podcast even lives longer than
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: parole. So it's more meaningful. It's longer lasting. It's deeper. And I think in real life, you're right. And also pick up the phone. Like you be the kind of person to pick up the phone for real partnerships and real connections. Not just this like very surface level, give it a have a deeper connection.
We are looking for deeper connection for sure. Feel responsibility to be like a perfect example of sobriety or how do you feel about that? Also, being a [00:44:00] public figure, there is this pair of social thing. I think you and I both know it, like people I am. We're both vulnerable out there so people think they know us and we do put enough out that we've enough of our ourself that they think they know us and they do know a part of us, not all of it, and we don't know them.
That's the weird thing is you know me, but I don't know you. You
Tawny Lara: I know it's,
Heather Lowe: So help me walk through that
Tawny Lara: yeah, this is a whole other can of worms of in this last year I, I've also been really distancing myself from. Sobriety conversations and sobriety content because I felt very typecast. I felt like I had pigeonholed myself. And I, and I think the best way to describe it is I've put a bow on that.
I've, I wrote the book, I made the deck, I did the podcast. I've. Done all tons of public speaking. I've said pretty much everything I have to say about sobriety, and I don't if you wanna know my thoughts on sobriety, [00:45:00] go look at these last nine years of work. I don't have anything new. And, this has also come coincided with, my, my relationship with cannabis.
I had a really, just this complex oh my God, what are my followers gonna think if I smoke weed? And it's like, why? Like why do I care so much about these followers? Like, why these people that I don't even know? Why do I care so much about what they think? And I had to really unpack a lot of that with myself, with my husband, with my therapist.
And I'm at this point now where I'm just like, I am sober from alcohol, I am in recovery and I will always be in recovery. But weed's a part of my life pretty much every day. And I'm okay with that. I'm at a point where I'm okay with that. And I had to remove myself from what. The sober verse thought about me and weed to actually figure out what it, what this plant even [00:46:00] means to me, and that was a huge, I'm talking years, that's been years of work that, that I've been working on that.
Heather Lowe: Your opinion is the only one that matters on that,
If anybody's concerned, it would be somebody very close to you. It wouldn't be one of your random followers,
Tawny Lara: Exactly.
Heather Lowe: you've never met, right? And everybody's got an opinion about freaking everything. Are you kidding me? Like the opinions and the need for somebody to share those opinions with you.
It's good for you. This is my life. I'm gonna live it the way I do. And you go on doing you girl. And I also love the past. You're ready to burn to the ground. Like I moved for on from that. It was just in my newsletter this week about late arrest. The pre previous versions of yourself, how
How to not have to be that person anymore. And in some ways we're nesting dolls of ourselves, right? Like each version, but in other ways. I'm not that person anymore. don't even know if I like her. That was that. That's not me. That was
Tawny Lara: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: then. That [00:47:00] was me in the nineties. That was me in the early two thousands. Like this is me now and I'm over that and I'm done with that and I'm here, come along with me now, present and future.
And that's always where coaching is too present and future. So I
Tawny Lara: Yeah, it's I think it's important to talk about.
I really do. And putting a pin in the sobriety conversation has really allowed me to I'm, I'm working on my next book and it's not about sobriety or addiction or mental health or anything like that, and I'm having so much fun figuring out what it is.
I don't know exactly what it is just yet, but a that everything that we've talked about for, this last hour has been the work that I've done in the past. I'm not working on that anymore. I like talking, I love talking about, I love this conversation because we're talking about what I'm working on now.
What I'm working on now is teaching and coaching and selling my drink and. And watering my plants and living this, take, hey, going to the [00:48:00] dog park and like living this, again, this embodied life where I am not plugged into this screen anymore. I'm still very into screens, but it's Instagram specifically.
I'm not trying to fit into this medium that no longer fits me.
Heather Lowe: I love it and the like and the heart. That and the follower and the feedback that matters is yours and you're having fun again and you're not judging yourself or needing affirmation by the numbers or the masses. And in fact, there's a problem with that if you do. I love feedback and I'm like a Enneagram three, so an image and people liking me also, people ple, recovering people, please are right, like that is very important.
Tawny Lara: a big part of it.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, and I'm unwind. I'm learning to unwind myself from some of that too, and give myself my own feedback. So I love that you're in a healthier spot. You're doing better. Work with people that are closer to you. the listeners how they can find you, where to follow you, where to get this newsletter, how to follow along with the book you're writing and all that good stuff, Tony.
Tawny Lara: [00:49:00] Don't follow me on Instagram. No. Just go to my website, tani lara.com. Find you know my newsletter is currently on Substack. But if go to my website, you'll connect to my newsletter, and that's the best way to, to stay in touch with me. My website also has information on my classes. If if you're interested in learning more about writing a book or media strategy, or establishing yourself as an expert on a subject without exploiting yourself, that's what I do. And also if you're looking for a delicious artisanal, non-alcoholic spirit parentheses, my husband and I co-founded it and there's nothing else like it. It's bold, it's strong. It's delicious. And yeah, drake parentheses.com.
Heather Lowe: Awesome. Thank you for your time and your knowledge and your spirit, and I look forward to staying connected with you. I think you have been in super big media publications too. So the fact that you're teaching us how to get exposure to those things without
Tawny Lara: Yeah.[00:50:00]
Heather Lowe: yourself it's so important and so many of the listeners probably going to go and look at your classes.
Thank you, girl. I love you. Till next
Tawny Lara: Thank you.
Heather Lowe: bye.
