ļ»æHello, para Peripeteia podcast listeners. I am super stoked to introduce you today. Maybe you already know her to Laura Danger. What a cool last name. Laura is a. I am a fan of hers. She's huge on social media, but she's a writer, an educator, a certified Fair Play facilitator, and an author of the New No More Mediocre, a book that's available on pre-order now. Laura's work centers on mental load, domestic equity and relationship communication, which we all need. Welcome to the Para PTO Podcast, Laura.
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk.
Let's chat about this. So the other cool thing is I didn't know until we started connecting that you are in the Chicago land area and so am I. And then I asked specifically, and it's like, okay, you are in Chicago and I'm in the suburbs, so you're even more Chicago than me. But still, I love to have somebody like who's local and close.
So that's a great connection that we, we have. did, tell me about how you, you were inspired to start your work about mental and domestic labor. I mean, I can't imagine you were just born with this. It must have grown on you. I.
No, like, like so many. Um, I found myself in a partnership where we did not have domestic equity and things were imbalanced and it was really hard to navigate, uh, especially just with the tools that we've been given and the examples that we've been given. Um, and my background is actually in education, so I've been for.
Um, most of my career, working in some capacity, doing some kind of teaching for a long time classroom teaching, which is the way I categorize it in the same realm of it's care work. It's, um, and it's,
women's work to begin with, and was it chosen for summers off in a schedule that it would accommodate children someday?
it absolutely was. Yes. Um, yeah, so that like being in that field and working in, um, a female dominated field, a care work field, a field that's, uh, very mental, mentally and emotionally heavy demands a lot of effort there. Um, in the last, uh, six or so years as our world has, it feels like continues to just get tumbled over and over again.
Um, all of that. Just, it felt like a pressure cooker. And in 2019, I had a second kid in 2020 and 2021, our worlds totally shut down and changed forever, and I, it kind of broke me and it really created a situation in my relationship where it was kind of like, we fix this or. We have no other option. The option is to fix this or to get out of the cycle that we have been in.
Uh, no matter how that looks, we cannot sustain the way we are doing things. Um, and for me, it wasn't just changing communication and division of labor in my household, but also my relationship to care, work, my understanding of. Domestic labor and what it, what goes into our households, our communities, and uh, kind of my worldview shifted, which brought me to talking about these things in my personal life.
Um, professional life and online.
Yeah, I love it. So I am somebody who like, I think the one way people look at it like women's work, let's say, is like, um, for us to be successful women, we have to do a man's job. Or we should do a man's job. We should be in finance or leadership or something like that. am a social, I have a social work degree,
Mm-hmm.
am like a girly girl, you know, always have been. And I really value homemaking really value mothering, and I really value caregiving and receiving. That's kind of my personality. It's sort of how I was
Mm-hmm.
these things, right? I think women's work, traditional women's work like nursing or social work or teaching, I don't think we pay it enough.
I think it's very valuable work that
Mm-hmm.
Like to put our children in charge of somebody else's care. I can't think of more important work to do for somebody to cure our sick and help our elderly and take care of our elders and all that stuff. I can't think of more important work to do. So for me, the w the typical stereotypical women's side is so highly valued and so under paid.
Yeah.
and, and so, and there's all kinds of ways to, I mean, you can be successful in a man's field as well, and there's there, what there could be is it's not gender specific, right. All time is is equal would be the thing. But yes, typically, and the way we were raised and our mothers and our grandmothers and all of us is the women are at home doing unpaid labor. the mineral hunting, bringing in money. And that is more valuable and more important, is that sort of the idea
Yeah.
Yeah. And then with COVID and having small children, perhaps teaching other students and then being at home teaching your own students. And what was your husband doing? Is this where it kind of escalated to like this, we can't sustain this anymore.
I'm doing everything. What are you doing?
Yeah. Yeah, it was. Um, and yeah, you talked about something important there. First of all, do you have children?
Mine are my, I have a 20-year-old and 17-year-old now, so they're, they're getting well on their way.
Okay, but they were home with you
Yeah,
2020 and, yeah. Um, so for me, I found Fair Play, which is the, it's a method, it's a book, um, developed by Eve Rodsky, and that came out in the fall of 2019. And that's when I first read it. And, uh, my husband and I, we've been together for, uh, a long time. We've been together for a very long time.
And, uh, I had a second kid, actually, I got surprised, laid off, um, right in like May, June of, uh, 2019, when, right, like days before I was gonna have my second baby.
Perfect
yeah. Excellent timing.
Yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah.
So that summer was very chaotic and stressful. And then I, I found a new position that fall 2019. I read Fair play and, um, my husband and I were kind of like, you know, we had it, uh, things were okay with one kid and two careers. That was okay. It was not great, but we could navigate through it. Then the stress of 2019 for us and these new jobs and trying to establish in a new, you know, when you get a new job, there's all of these social relationships that you have to build.
You have to like figure out who you're gonna eat lunch with and like the personalities and who can you trust and not trust, and. I think for me, that emotional piece of like feeling very betrayed by my job, um, the lack of sleep, the demands on my very small social battery,
Mm-hmm.
all of that out and then having to come home and my partner to even very willingly say.
I want to help. How can I help? I'd be like, I don't know, man. I look around. I like had no capacity to even think about having, I had no patience. And that's for us, even the, even the balance that we did have. I just, I couldn't, I had no capacity for it anymore. And then 2020 happened. And we were shoved together in our home and some things got easier, but a lot of things like got a lot more stressful and very, very hard with the two at home.
And both of us had jobs. Our, we are very grateful to continue to have an income
Mm-hmm.
it created it. It was stressful in its own ways.
Definitely, yeah. Trying to work parent at the same time and have a marriage and, um, allotted togetherness.
Very much togetherness. Yes.
it's definitely a lot. So I love, let's, I was, I luckily got to meet Eve RedSky in person at, um, uh, wellness Council event in Chicago, and I
Cool.
was de oh my God. I was de I was in the front row, right.
I was just absolutely delighted. And also. She impressed me because she's a wonderful, she's a gorgeous person. She's a wonderful speaker, and I, I love this idea. I love how eloquently she speaks about fair play. And also, she was the only person, the only presenter at this entire wellness conference that mentioned mommy wine culture and how alcohol is not helping As a sober coach, as a social worker, corporate worker now turned sober. Coach, it was like, bingo, this is such a huge thing and nobody's talking. How could nobody be talking about this? Um, I know you have also had your own sober journey, which just absolutely like, okay, awesome, you're in Chicago, you're sober, plus you do this, um, fair play work. And so what was happening during that time at home? Was that a time where, had you already been sober or were you starting to get sober? Or was alcohol the answer to some of the pain?
So I. I've been sober. Actually it'll be 10 years in a couple of, uh, months, I guess, in September. Thank you.
Yes.
Um, I, so I was not drinking. I. I would say what was going on with us? Uh, yeah, alcohol was not a part. Um, but I don't know if this is your experience. I feel like this is an experience for many. Um, alcohol was one way of, of avoiding, and there are other ways that sometimes when I'm not in a super healthy mindset,
Mm-hmm.
um, I will.
Still kind of act out or avoid or some of those sane behaviors that were amplified by alcohol. Um, so yeah, I was, I think I was having a hard time coping as maybe all of us were. Um, but, um, I don't know. I wanna, I wanna make sure I'm accurately answering your question. So do you wanna, where should I go from here?
I wanna make sure I'm.
Alcohol wasn't the avoidance technique at that time, um, is what it sounds like, but it had been a part of your life previous to that.
Definitely and it negatively impacted my relationship. Um, but yeah, I quit before I became a parent and I fully. I, I am really grateful for that. I'm grateful that I quit before I became a parent because I, I'm the kind of person I think if I had a drink I wouldn't ever stop.
Yeah,
Um, and I would not be the kind of parent, even with the issues that I still continue to deal with.
I wouldn't be able to be this kind of a parent if I was still drinking.
that's awesome that your kids will never know that part of you.
Mm-hmm.
love that. Um, that wasn't my experience and I am so grateful that I quit before COVID that it wasn't a thing because I can't imagine how that would, um, go sideways real fast, being stuck at home and having the excuse of all of it.
And it was for many people, and many clients and many mothers, and often because of this, because it was. It was okay to drink at work. Work and home were the same thing. It was,
Yeah.
slippery slope fast and there's still, it's a lagging indicator now of people trying to recover from that time and what seemed normal and what seemed like short-term survival, um, and what seemed like a solution has further become a problem. let's talk about your husband because. I'm sure you married a wonderful man who, like you said, he's willing to help. What is the difference between, like, what is this, what do we mean when we say domestic labor and equity and, um, you know, I like my husband too. Like, I'll go to the store, make me a list. Right? What a
Mm-hmm.
talk about that. Talk about the difference and what, and what we, we don't know what we don't know. If this is our first, um, conversation about something like this.
Yeah, absolutely. Um, and again, I'll shout out Eve, Eve Rodsky and like, um, what Eve talks about. I think is like really a great framework for thinking about this. She's kind of coined this idea of, uh, CPE, which is the conception, the planning, and the execution of a task. And I, I like that language because, um, basically you have to know a task needs to happen.
Like you have to have a concept. It has to become a thing in your brain. There is the planning of a task, um, figuring out how it's gonna be done, and then there's executing on it. And so to your example of grocery shopping, um, I. The, the groceries are not just the groceries. There are, there's planning.
There's knowing what your family likes. There's knowing what sales are happening, the family budget. There are all of these pieces, and then there's also fitting that into the puzzle piece of your family's needs. And in order to do the groceries well and do them completely, you have to have a pretty. Vast understanding of what's going on in your household.
So like for example, if you're gonna be going out of town in two weeks, you might be thinking, okay, I can plan for certain kinds of protein that are gonna last a certain amount of time in my fridge. Which children are going to be eating with us? Are we gonna be having family over? Um, are we gonna be grilling?
Do we even have charcoal like. There are all of these pieces that go into just thinking about these things.
Mm-hmm.
a lot of times, like, um, first of all, it's very hard to turn that off. And so it can be a, an invisible weight, an invisible amount of space that's taken up in your brain. Um, and. So there's all of this thinking and all of this planning and all of this mental load or mental labor that goes into a single task.
Mm-hmm.
groceries, it was so easy, neat and tidy, right? When you just say the groceries. Um, so there's all of this mental weight to it and having to figure out, like I said, like the emotional capacity when you are feeling overwhelmed. When the world has you locked down and you're thinking about, oh, if I go to the grocery store and I get sick and I bring it home and there's no vaccines, or like, what, whatever's on your brain having to say, dear, will you please do this for me?
Then thinking to yourself, this isn't for me, this is for my family. Why do I have to ask? Nobody put me, I didn't. I didn't accept this job. Why do I know everything? All of this like resentment and frustration from the way that the world is.
Mm-hmm.
All of that on you having to. Measure your voice and be considerate of other people's feelings when you are feeling frustrated yourself.
That is a ton of emotional labor. Um, and then the other thing is if you don't get it quite right or the other person doesn't feel like you got it quite right, it can often create such a, it can create an argument or a series of arguments. That is heavier than just doing it yourself or not asking for help.
So the whole thing's a minefield.
Yeah, I'm exhausted and I'm already building resentment and thinking about
Yes.
it's like, um, and I'm like, uh, recovering from like people pleasing and perfectionism,
Mm.
also plays into it.
Mm-hmm.
like if we're gonna have dinner and my husband's like, oh, we're outta out of ketchup and we're grilling, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
like. I'm sorry I didn't do it all right. Like,
Right.
I ruined everything. You know what I mean? It's like I didn't, I meant to put it on the list. Now here's the thing. I don't, I don't eat ketchup.
Mm-hmm.
I don't even, you know, but I have to remember that we're out a ketchup or that there's actually a ketchup bottle in the fridge,
Mm-hmm.
not enough in it for four people. You know, or, and in my case, I hate to throw my family under the bus, but there might be a box of crackers in the pantry, but the bag inside the boxes empty. And it's
Mm-hmm.
to clean that. It's, I'm the recycle bin going
Right?
all the time, right? Everybody else just puts it back. I think that's probably kind of common.
So
Mm-hmm.
The, the open, I, I see it as like the amount of tabs open,
Yes.
open is a lot, and I'm walking around all day saying, put ketchup on the list, put ketchup on the list, put ketchup on the list. But first I gotta pick this up, but first I gotta get this in the mail. But first I gotta do that.
Oh, I'm interrupted. I gotta attend to this. Oh, I have a work call. Put ketchup on the list. Put that
Yep.
Half a second task has now taken a headspace for hours and hours and hours. And then when we don't have catch up. the way I treat myself over that
Mm-hmm.
like guilt, shame, you name it, or resentment back at somebody else.
Why is it my job? Like you said, it's a lot. It's definitely a lot. but we were raised that women, I, I mean, I was raised by a single mom, so I had, you know, my mom had no choice but to do everything, be mom, dad, everyone, everything.
Mm-hmm.
but I think typically I. The women's work is in the home. That's your work, right?
That's your job. So that falls within your responsibilities. Why is that not the case? Or how do we grow out of that? What? What is a healthier way to be at this day and age?
Yeah. It's so interesting that that messaging about, um, who, who's. Who that work belongs to. Um, it's interesting that that continues to linger despite, you know, the majority of households are not the nuclear family. Um, they don't fit the bill for sin. Like dad is the breadwinner and mom doesn't have an income like this.
This picture that we is painted for us is not the reality. Um, and I know like. In, in my experience, I have always been like a self-identified, uh, feminist and it's always been a dual income household and there have never been clear acknowledgements of this is your job and this is your job.
Mm-hmm.
we never would've said out loud to each other, this is, you are gonna take charge of this and you will get the list.
That that was never a thing. But I think there are little things that happen like, um. I remember being like 23 and my, we had a big group of friends who we would meet on Sundays and we would watch movies together and things like that. It was like a potluck and there was a, all of the, the women would text each other and be like, oh, I got this new recipe.
Do you wanna, let's all meet ahead of time and make it, or we would be the ones to throw the birthday parties or. We would do this care, work, this, uh, kin keeping is another way of describing it. We would be doing this work and, uh, started to develop these skills that we've been developing probably disproportionately, uh, data shows disproportionately, even teenagers, girls are doing more of this care and domestic labor than boys.
Um. We were, it snowballed and it became this thing where it was like, oh, well you have, you know, you have a stronger opinion on this, or you know where it is, so, or you're going to the grocery store. So, and it's always these, these like tiny little skill deficits exist, or these tiny little beliefs happen where it's, you have a stronger opinion.
When it might actually just be that one person is expected to pay attention to it or faces shame or guilt if they don't do a good job or they're excluded from their friend group if they don't participate. Or, you know, women are sitting around and talking about their relationships and developing this, uh, empathy and communication skills that they're.
You know, they're, the men are sitting around doing something else
They're
it just kind of, yes, yes, and it snowballs.
Yeah. I definitely see that, uh, that makes so much sense. Uh, and I put it on myself. I think I want to, and also like the Pinterest mom. Some of it I enjoy, right? I want a cute tablescape and I want the best Halloween costume. And I, so I put it on myself and then probably, yeah, up and up with my lady friends also, I'm perpetuating that. but I think the other thing is like our partners are capable. My partner is perfectly capable I allow him to be. we both fall into stereotypes if we don't challenge them.
Yeah, that's the. I feel like I, you know, I do a lot of thinking about like, how can we do better? How can we do better for ourselves? And it is, I, I think what makes, um, I use the term, the NAG paradox. This situation you get stuck in where it's just, give me a list, and then it's, or it's like, just tell me what to do.
Don't tell me what to do. It's this, uh, frustration and resentment, this feeling of feeling criticized, this feeling of feeling defensive. That happens when one person is managing more of the, the delegating and the mental load, and the other person is taking direction and giving each other room. To do things like, Hey, you know what?
I absolutely love doing the Halloween stuff, so I'm gonna do that. Do you wanna do it with me? Like, an invitation in to participate can be a part of it, um, and giving some grace and, and you being a little bit looser, um, as someone who sometimes just needs something to control.
Mm-hmm.
when the world feels out of control like that, doing something collaborative, uh, instead of going solo in my, on my own can be one thing.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but also the way that the NAG paradox becomes really toxic. Is when each, when one party, like you said, like people pleasing when one party is overcompensating for communication and emotional management,
Yeah.
when the other person can do their own communication. And if you were to be like, what? Like who made me in charge of the the ketchup?
If at that moment your partner can say, whoa. You know what? I didn't realize that was where you were at. I'm, you know, what if I was feeling that overwhelmed? I can understand. I would probably be feeling the same. And I feel really attacked when you talk to me that way. Like if, if they can take charge of naming how they're feeling, if they can, uh, empathize and reflect back what you're saying and where you are at.
Mm-hmm.
But a lot of times what happens is it spirals,
Mm-hmm.
just goes totally downhill. There's blowing up, there's big fight. However you guys cope, that's where you fall to, especially if you've been together for a long time.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but I think that emotional piece is where like breaking out of that loop of resentment needs to happen.
Each party needs to try to take responsibility only of their part.
Totally. And um, I married an avoidant of course, so, um. He'll say, is obviously me. Will you do this? Will you do? Yeah. He'll do it. He'll do it. His intentions are pure. He does. He will do it well. He doesn't do it fast enough. It probably never gets done. He's a beautiful person who's also loves, you know, avoidance and loves procrastinating and all those
Mm-hmm.
have our things, so when I hand them something, I can't always close that tab in my mind, and that's the thing I have to tell 'em. Like my tab is still open.
Mm-hmm.
on you to, I don't wanna have to supervise this task
Mm-hmm.
hand it off, I wanna close that tab and use that space.
And I don't trust that you're gonna do it because you don't.
Mm-hmm.
again and again and again, so I'm still holding the responsibility of this, right? And so that is sometimes where. The challenge lies and also my expectations. You know, he's like, oh, I didn't realize you wanted me to do that.
No. I'm like, if I'm ever asking you, I wanted it done yesterday, like you're already
Yeah,
I'm having to say it out loud like you are already late, I would jump so.
one of those like. I'm sure you have seen, or whoever's listening has seen these jokes. Um, or like, it's like the common co couple's comedy thing where, um, it's like wife will ask husband to take the trash out and then five seconds later you hear her in the kitchen snapping the bag being like, oh, it's like you said, it's already too late.
I needed you to do it now. Um, and that's, that's really, really a tricky place to be in.
Mm-hmm.
Right. The solution would be to communicate and have clear expectations or like, Hey, we need the trash taken out after every meal. Um, I don't, you know,
Yeah,
we have salmon, it needs to go out that night.
Yes.
Like whatever your,
Yeah.
guidelines are, and it needs to go directly out to the alley.
Otherwise the squirrels will get it.
Right.
those particulars. Ideally you would work those out, um, and sitting down and going through your household slowly. Like you sit down once a week and you start working through, um, there are lists online. I have a list on substack, the time to lean pod substack that you can download actually, and you can work through like, here are all the tasks in our house and here's how we want them done.
But. When you have fought about that
Mm-hmm.
never just like, Hey, you know, I would love this to be, I would love the trash to be taken all the way out to the alley. That's usually, that's often met with like, are you saying I don't, it's like, oh, are you saying that I am not doing enough?
Then it's this defense ping pong. You just ping pong and you're no longer focusing on. Okay, but if we set
you've always had.
Exactly,
is the argument we recycle,
yeah.
Yeah.
So it's not as simple.
communicate it. Yeah. For me, this went right along with my sobriety. That's why I asked you, because for me, it was recognizing what I needed,
Mm-hmm.
stating it out loud. Creating a boundary about it and a real boundary, right? Like, if you don't do this, then this, then I'm gonna do this, right? If this isn't done, then I'm hiring out. If you can't take care of this by this deadline, I'm gonna pay somebody to do it
Mm-hmm.
So that went along with my sobriety, was empowering myself and communicating me my needs, but I was drinking away stuff that I didn't even know was there, right?
Resentment and anger and the load and the overwhelm and everything. I was just pouring alcohol on it to keep a smile, to smile and nod. I removed the alcohol, I realized what are the things I'm drinking at?
Mm-hmm.
how can I do this in a different way? So my relationship has grown in a beautiful way.
I, my family had to renegotiate new rules and they had to change their behavior when I changed mine. And it was a little clumsy at first for everybody, but it was really beautiful. We were able to grow together and heal. And it's mostly, it's mostly Wetted bliss know with our whole family. But yeah, it's recognizing those things and I think communicating about those things.
The funny thing is I bought Fair Play. I watched the documentary and I bought, read the book and you know, met Eve and then I bought the game and then I had, I played it with my husband and it was on a week that I was traveling for work and I had the opposite effect that you would imagine. I am a martyr who just marches around and thinks I do everything, thinks I just keep this ship running right.
Oh.
my husband, like that week, he had done everything from the health insurance to fixing the wiper blades, to doing the carpool and the meals and the whatever, because I was gone. And I was also like, I wasn't giving him credit for all the tabs that he holds, right? Like changing the air filter and adding salt to the whatever and getting the oil changed and. I wasn't prior valuing those things because those aren't the things that I see. He was doing a lot of invisible labor that I wasn't noticing, and I'm really lucky in my family. My, I guess I shouldn't even say lucky, I would say it's unique. I think that when we have a family gathering, it is typically my father-in-law and my brother-in-law and my husband that are in the kitchen, and us ladies are sitting on the couch. So when I see that scene, it makes me really happy.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I think that. One of the biggest benefits of like, you know, there's the Fair, fair Play method and essentially, essentially the foundation of it is let's make the invisible labor visible and let's get clear and when something is not going well, let's be curious about what is going on
Mm-hmm.
taking responsibility for our own stuff, problem solving, it's all these things that we know we should be doing.
Um. But when everyone does that, instead of just like clicking into space into the places where we have been taught or maybe where we like, may have initially developed a rut or skills, um, if we are just more intentional about it, like you said, like I am actually. Not super great at multitasking when there is a social event happening, so I have a harder time keeping close eye on the kids, whereas my husband is more drawn to like step back and kinda gets overwhelmed with like close conversations and loud, you know, with the adults and would actually maybe prefer to be engaged with the kids.
So in a lot of the family gatherings we're at, we, we see a lot of the men are taking the lead with the kids or facilitating games or, you know, taking a kid to go put 'em down for a nap because it's really loud in the other room.
Mm-hmm.
my husband is really good at packing the bags. Like there's always enough stuff, there's the snacks and the water, and he's thought about where we're gonna park, things like that, where.
Yeah, sometimes those things are happening and no one has acknowledged them
Mm-hmm.
and they are intentionally split and intentionally balanced, and if we could just take it, that approach overall,
Yeah.
it would be great.
Talk about it, recognize it. I love that. Make the invisible visible and share it. You
Mm-hmm.
may be things your partners doing that you're not even aware of, that they're doing behind the scenes that you can give credit for and focus on everybody's strengths, right? Like,
Yes.
I wouldn't expect my husband to have the beautiful tablescape and leave it up to me because I like it, and then it makes me, my caregiving feel more joyful if I'm doing the things that I really enjoy, right?
Mm-hmm.
somebody has to take out the trash to clean the toilets or something, and I do that too, but. A lot of
Yeah.
work and, and getting a home to run. And when it does feel fair, then there's less resentment. You don't feel like a martyr like you're doing it all when there's a true partnership there. And I, I think in hope as we, as the generations go, there isn't like male and female labor. There isn't boy task and girl tasks or men task and female tasks. and my in-laws are great at this. Like she mows the lawn and he takes the kids to a play, you know, and it, and,
Yes.
makes more, maybe more money and he does more of the cooking.
And it's, it's beautiful when that works, when you have a, a true partnership. And I, uh, I love to see it. And it's, it, it's not divided by gender. It's can be divided by people's strengths and what they're good at, what they enjoy.
Absolutely. Yeah. We're all happier and better off for it when we do that.
So tell us about no more mediocre, your new book. First. Congratulations. What an accomplishment and tell us about it. Um, let share a little bit about what it's about and then of course I want to ask you about the process of writing it as well.
Oof. Yeah. Um, well thank you. It has been an adventure.
Hmm.
Um, so no more mediocre does go into some of the things we've already talked about. Um, I. I, it's, it starts out talking about the history of care work and how it's been devalued. Um, the amount of value it really does bring to our lives in a variety of ways.
Um, and so it, it starts there. It explores a little bit the ways that, um, you know, some of those, like the couple's comedy, where it's like, oh, this is a really relatable thing. Um, and how that couple's comedy can sometimes create relief, but also can reinforce what we see as normal or what we see as inevitable and it moves through.
Um, a lot of the ways that we can change each chapter has at least five things that we can do right now today to have better for ourselves. Um, and. Including treating care as something that everybody is responsible for.
Yeah.
it talks about the neg paradox where I give some examples of people who've done things very well, or the transformations that have happened, um, talks about.
Weaponized incompetence, which is using that emotional labor or the, um, avoidance or purposely doing something wrong, um, to get out of being asked for help or get out of being accountable for, uh, playing your part in a relationship or household. And it goes on to talk about some of the scripts that we've been handed about.
What our roles are and what the most important things are. Maybe one of those things would be, should we be married no matter what in a certain specific way, or can we be more creative and have a variety of relationships? And how do we want our lives to look for real? Like intentionally, what do we want our relationships to feel and look like?
So it's, um, a more holistic approach to wanting quality of life, um, and quality connections and communication and that clarity and curiosity, um, and relationships in our households, but also a little bit bigger beyond that. And our families, how we choose our families in our neighborhoods, in our cities, and.
Just overwhelmingly how we can show up for ourselves and each other in a more caring way. That's kind of big.
There's so much there. Yeah. I love it. First of all, I love the neg products. I love that. And weaponized incompetence, like I love that you're putting words and language to some of this that I don't think we've always had to begin with,
Mm-hmm.
about it when we don't even have a language and you're putting some words to it.
Plus, it sounds like there's specific takeaways, tangible action items that we can
Yes.
right away, which makes it so valuable. But the bigger conversation even about relationships, and I talk about this sometimes too, in a marriage, many cultures. Some places we marry for all sorts of different reasons, right?
And some is for husbands to do the husband's job and for wives to do the wive's job. That we
Mm-hmm.
live this life, this family life, um, without both parties. So we marry for people to take on specific roles. And you talk about. and marriages and, and some people want romantic love. Some, some people it makes perfect sense.
Some people want health insurance, right? So
Right.
of ways to get married. Reasons to get married and how to make that work. And your book no more mediocre goes into some of those things.
It does. Yeah. I like you said, there's, there are plenty of reasons to have the relationships we have and. With a more intentional lens, all of us could have more of our needs met. Um, I think that there are, I think that there are books, there are creators online, there, there are theorists who try to sell an answer like, this is, this is what you need to do.
Everyone needs to get divorced, or, this is what you need to do. You need to make, make it work no matter what. Um, and. I'm not making that claim in this book. I don't claim to have the answer for you however
That
I want to.
labor, 10 steps to
Yeah.
mental load.
Right. And it's like, you know, some, uh, I don't, I don't know what your relationships are structured like, but for me, I, my relationship with my husband, we really like each other and we really like spending time together.
Also we have some holes, like there are some holes in, he is never gonna wanna go see uh, a horror movie with me ever. Like that's just not his thing. He will
Mm-hmm.
I really want him to, he will. And what I'm looking for when I go see a horror movie is to see it with someone who wants to see it.
A
It's like
Yeah. I
so
family to go to shows with me anymore because if they don't enjoy it as much as me, it's not as fun as me except fun for me. Right. I'm like, if you don't love this as much as I do, get outta here,
So you have to find someone.
Yeah, exactly.
So that's, you know, you find a variety. The nuclear family unit is it, it's not realistic or natural or, or real. It's not sustainable to expect every need to be met.
Right,
one person that's really unfair for you and for them.
Yeah.
So my, what I propose is more intentionality, a more expansive look at how can we have our needs met in a variety of relationships that look a variety of different ways.
Mm-hmm.
A hundred percent. I'm definitely on board. One person's never gonna meet all your needs. Even as a coach, I say that like even as a sober coach, I'm not your only. Sober resource. You know, you could have plenty and many, and I can be a main guide and I have a lot of things to offer. I'm not your only thing.
Right? There's definitely can be other groups, other people, other author, speakers, podcasters, add it all to your toolbox. And same with relationships. It wouldn't be fair to expect one person to meet all your needs. That's just, that's not even realistic. Let's talk about the broader social context for a minute.
How does this, um, unequal division of labor. Reflect on the broader societal issues and why should every listener care about this?
Yeah. Well I think, I mean, think about it with your family, where you've got some people cooking and some people sitting, we all deserve to have a variety of of experiences. We all deserve to show up as ourselves, and sometimes that means expressing yourself through cooking
Mm-hmm.
building a relationship with other people in the kitchen, which is really fun.
Um, or might feel very rewarding to watch other people cook your eat your food.
Mm-hmm.
I'm the person cleaning up afterward.
Mm-hmm.
is very much not rewarding for me to be in the kitchen, and it's not rewarding for the people I cook for at all. Um, but it feels really good to be seen. No one's forcing me to do that unless like, you know, we really have to.
But, um, it everyone. Deserves the opportunity to show up and, uh, be creative and be themselves and build a variety of relationships, including with, um, kids and the people. Not just kids who we care for, but all of the people in our lives who we care for. It's a really special kind of. Way of, um, building intimacy by letting yourself be cared for and by caring for someone else.
It's, you have to pay attention to someone by listening or observing or getting to know them when you care for them.
Mm-hmm.
that's like just such a human experience and really meets. A need of connection that we all have. And when you are boiled down, I'm saying culturally we are often boiled down to our productivity or if we can maintain a certain, uh, facade or if we can just show up endlessly for others,
Yeah.
it's as a paycheck or as a martyr mother,
Mm-hmm.
um, being, allowing other people to.
Um, be a little bit vulnerable and express themselves creates this like environment where everyone in your sphere can do that.
Mm-hmm.
And that's human. That's very fulfilling, very intimate, very, that's love. And I mean, isn't that what life's about?
Yeah, like I am learning to receive
Mm-hmm.
is hard for me to not be productive and to think I'm worthy and worth it, even if I'm not hustling or you know, the standard of productivity. But I look at my dog and I'm like, learn to receive. You wanna scratch his ear? He
Yes.
back and fully, you know, take pleasure in that. I can sit on the couch and enjoy somebody who's making dinner and cleaning it up for me.
Mm-hmm.
I often do also love the cleanup process. Um, but I'm learning to receive and that is love. That is a huge part of love. It's not only the giving part, it's receiving, and that is intimacy. And also I think about like the art of gathering. People wanna contribute, then they can take ownership in the beautiful. that you have and the beautiful time that you have because they're playing a part. And I think about my little niece and nephew, they are the first ones to ask if they can put aprons on. They want to help with the dishes, right?
They wanna be part of it. And then we have a way to interact together. We
Yeah.
speaking the same language in the kitchen when we're doing dishes together, and the little ones are helping and contributing and they're very proud. They want to fill the water glasses. They want to be part of that gathering, and they get to be part when they have a job or a role. So it is important. I can see that. And I can see that in the bigger realm too of the world, that there's times forgiving and receiving and we, we all contribute. We all play a part. Nobody's passive. There. We're all active, engaged participants in creating our environment landscape. I imagine though, you have an idea about any policy or cultural shifts that would help support more equitable relationships.
I do. It's, it's a tough moment. It's a tough moment in the world to be thinking about how we as a society invest in care, um, and care infrastructure. Um, so like, I mean, one thing, I was just reading something pretty interesting recently about, uh, a housing crisis in the seventies in New York. Follow me for a moment.
Um. And you think about the people who are most impacted when there's a housing crisis and there's not enough safe housing, not enough affordable housing, um, when the housing that Yeah. Is available is falling apart. And in the seventies there was this switch happening where, uh, some of the buildings were falling apart because of neglect.
Because if they fell apart, then the person who owned them could build a new building and they didn't have to. Be beholden to the, the, um, locked in rental prices. So, um, they didn't have, they could skirt the cap of the rental prices. So it,
A really big way.
yes, huge. And so you think about the people who are most marginalized, who are trying to access that, who are probably, um, a lot of times as single mothers, uh, single black mothers who are working multiple jobs or are working the jobs in other people's homes who are doing the domestic work in other people's homes.
Um, really, really struggling to show up. In caring ways sufficiently against all odds in their own homes for their kids. Now, mind you, New York was not, uh, the, the public parks and public spaces were not very well kept. So you can't just kick your kid out the door and send them to the park. You have to have them at home, and your home is being neglected by your landlord.
So a lot of times these women, most of the time were maintaining their spaces, fighting off the peeling paint, make overcompensating for the lack of care from their landlords. And they were doing that work. 'cause they had to. 'cause if they didn't do it, their kids wouldn't be safe. They,
are nowhere to be found. For whatever reason.
yes. Right.
were. They didn't want it. They were abusive. The woman fled. Whatever reason. The man is not there at all.
Right. So it's all of these, all of these issues stacked up against, and all that time that domestic and care work has to happen. Every, like, if you don't do it, you're not safe If you don't do it, bellies are not full. You, they, you have no other option but to do it. And in that way. If there is no care infrastructure, no accessible healthcare, childcare, public, safe, public schools, public parks, public transportation.
If that doesn't exist, it falls on the most marginalized to pick up the slack because they have to, which
Mm-hmm.
is continues to not be fair, continues to be dehumanizing.
Mm-hmm.
Um, it, it's totally oppressive. And no, none of society happens unless we happen. We're the workers, we are the, we are society. So all of those things structurally, uh, would make our lives infinitely better.
Yeah.
Our communities infinitely better.
the community is well, the villages are well,
S
the wom children are, well, yeah. That is the backbone. Those are the people. That is the future generation.
mm-hmm.
yeah, we absolutely need things to keep people, women and children well. Mm.
Here's to hoping,
Yeah.
and
And with a loud speaker and again and again. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much.
yeah,
what does mediocre define mediocre in the context of no more mediocre. What does that mean?
so when I say mediocre, what I mean is less than we deserve. That as simple as that, we've been conditioned to settle for less than we deserve. So it's not just in our romantic partnerships, but even the fact that we have been convinced that that's where our lives should begin and end. That in and of itself is mediocre.
So this book is to challenge that the way that we show up in our closest, most intimate households and beyond.
Mm. Yeah. Thank you. Can you give one tip of like a strategy that can help women maintain boundaries without guilt? Because I think we. It. Well, I know me and my clients do it. We set a boundary and then we feel terribly guilty afterwards.
Um, I want to hear one from you too, because it sounds like this is fresh in your mind. Um, but I would say my favorite thing is simply having people in my sphere who are doing the same work.
Mm-hmm.
Just having backup, having like a cheerleader friend or, you know, if, if you go to meetings or whatever it is that supports you, even if it's your garden club.
Um, having people who are going to show up and hold you accountable, accountable for showing up. I think that that's helpful.
Yeah, I love that I've got a community with my group and it's just that women with other women that get it right, that can support and cheer, lead and hold each other accountable. But I just, I mean, I was raised to be very codependent, just you are not responsible for somebody else's feelings, always like you are not responsible for. Whatever you're responsible for yourself
Mm-hmm.
and, uh, we are not taught this and I try to teach everybody this. Your main job is to take care of yourself. That is your most important job in your, is in this entire world. Your job is to take care of yourself because as we just talked about, if you are not well, you cannot take care of others, right?
When you know you can't take care of others without knowing how to take care of yourself, own oxygen mask first, right? Like, if you are drowning in alcohol, you're not saving anybody else in that stream. You can't even keep yourself afloat. So
Mm-hmm.
job is to take care of yourself. But we're not taught that we're, we're, we were raised to think our main job is to take care of others.
Mm-hmm.
And so I know when I am, well, I, it's better for me. It's better for my loved ones, it's better for the world. And I do have more to give and there is a bucket to pour from and all that good stuff. But it's a different reframe than what I was taught. And um, it doesn't matter if somebody likes it or not, it matters if I like it or not.
Right.
Right.
And that
I love, uh, I love remembering that boundaries will be tested. They will. They for sure will be pushed up against and tested, and knowing that can be really helpful. That like, okay, that's part of the process. Your boundary wasn't wrong. It was okay, and it's gonna be pushed up against.
Yeah. And um. The expectation of not everyone's gonna, like, I wouldn't expect
Right, right.
right? I,
No, of course.
make everybody happy with this. People will be disappointed in me. People won't like me, people won't like that, and that's gotta be okay with me. I'm gonna like me, know.
Mm-hmm.
And that's not in a selfish way, that's truly, I mean, to even have to say that, but that's where we do our best work is when we are, well, when we are taking care of ourselves.
Yeah.
um, we do need a little more focus on us as women, especially as caregivers. The ones who are doing the care work, I. As you
Mm-hmm.
so no more mediocre for sure. Um, thank you for your conversation, Laura. Thank you for your wisdom. Thank you for your knowledge and experience. Where can everybody follow you, find you, support you if they already don't?
I know you've already got a huge following, but would love to promote everything you're doing. I think this is a message that the whole world needs to hear.
Well, thank you so much. Um, I have, I try to keep my information updated on laura danger.com. Um, and there I have links. You can pre-order a signed copy from Women and Children First Chicago. I.
Yes, please.
and if you pre-order, you can redeem. I have a, it's like an exclusive bonus workbook resource that you can get.
Again, the links are, they all live on my website or, um, so you can get that. And on Instagram is where I am most active on the daily or weekly. Um, and that is my handle. Is that darn chat.
Amazing. Thank you. We'll have all this in the show notes. I appreciate your time. You're one of my favorite follows, so absolutely everybody order that book, get on Instagram. I've got mine ordered and yeah, Laura is, um, there's daily insight information, funny stuff. Today's. of the day is cats. So if you're into cats, you can also, you can also check that out there.
Thank you for your time and expertise.
Thank you.
