ļ»æKelly to the Peripeteia podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today. You are an author, a psychotherapist, a social worker after my own heart. And even a media personality talking about mental health and addiction and all those important things. So thank you so much for taking time out of your day to meet with me.
I'm a super fan of yours. It's so good to see you. It's taken us so long to get right in front of each other again. It's so awesome to be here. Awesome, thank you. So can you tell us to share with the listeners a little bit about your story? Of course, I know it. Um, it's in your book myself. But what did life look like for you before you got sober?
I. Who, well, I usually, um, start out by saying I grew up above my parents' bar, and people can fill in the blanks from there. That's why I feel so connected to you, because my parents met in a beer tent and my dad was a bartender. So it's like, yeah, obviously we would become friends At this point I'm like, I know I'm this side, you know, it's in the, it's in the blood, it's in the jeans.
I come from a long family line of addiction as well as, um, my family being in the bar and restaurant industry. Um, and grew up in Lincoln Park, um, right down the street from Wrigley Field, and my grandfather owned a bar that my dad bought. It's still there today that my brother, uh, runs and he and my dad live above the bar still.
And, um, I'm the oldest of five and, um, bartended there in college and met my husband there, uh, 25 years ago. Um, and gosh, you know, it's, it, it was a place that all the teachers from my small Catholic school down the street would come and hang out for happy hour on Fridays. And all my friends' parents would hang out at, um, on the weekends and there was a jukebox there and a pool table.
And, um, my friends and I would come in, uh, we'd have lemonade stands in front of the bar and, um. Come in and pour sodas out of the, the soda gun. And there was popcorn. It was just a really lively, fun, um, family owned business. And, um, I have a lot of good memories from there. And, um, you know, some ones who, some memories that really shaped who I am today too.
Yeah, let's talk about that because our topic today is mommy wine culture. And we're also gonna touch on, because we're at the age and stage of having teenagers and college kids and what the drinking culture looks like for them. But one main thing is like, you have a lot of good memories. There was, there was some fun, there was some bonding, there was family time, there was music, there was popcorn, there was lemonade, and teachers and family and all those things are so good and so positive.
It's just that then we give alcohol the credit for all those things. Because even if the alcohol wasn't there, you could still have all that goodness. Right. But we just related it to, it's alcohol. It's alcohol that creates this environment. It's alcohol that makes the fun. It's alcohol. That's a party. So I imagine there's also some ugly memories, um, over drinking and addiction even, and, and stories of that.
How do you kinda like reconcile that in your mind, the good and the bad and how it relates to alcohol in your upbringing? Well, I love that you say that 'cause it's like you could have, you're absolutely right. We could have all of those experiences and remove the alcohol and hopefully everybody's still having a good time.
Yeah. But what I oftentimes saw was. While the adults in my life were drinking, they were in great moods, and when they weren't drinking, they weren't in the best mood. So I loved when people would drink because it just, I, there were less limitations on myself as a kid. And, um, everybody, you know, at the bar would be given out $5 bills or dollar bills.
And like, it was just this environment that was so, um, fun because there were no rules. You could, yeah. And then you wanted to grow into that. I imagine. I did. You were gonna bring like a grown up and you were gonna be a fun person and you wanted to be loose too. Yeah, absolutely. And I couldn't wait to have my first drink.
I wanted to see what this was all about. Um, and so my first drink resulted in a blackout at the age of 12. Um, and from that point on until I stopped drinking at 35, I played this game of. Do I binge drink? Do I drink a little, do I not drink at all? And it was me trying to manage and control my drinking, my entire drinking career.
And I thought I needed to figure it out some way, like there was some magical formula to drink correctly. Mm-hmm. Well this is woven so deep in your identity. You, I had my first drink at 12 also. I just had one bush light. Okay. I did not drink to blackout. You remember that? Do you remember that having your first sip?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, it was um, out of a red solo cup at a friend's older cousin's party. And it was the summer and I was wearing like my cool jean shorts and my hair sprayed hair, then my curled bangs. And I was like so excited. I just, even before I took my first sip, it was that environment I had at the bar that was just like fun and there was good music and.
I knew that the alcohol would enhance that experience, um, from what I had seen. And so, you know, I had taken a few sips and nothing happened, wanted it to happen right away. So I just kept drinking and drinking and drinking. And the next thing I knew I was laying in my friend's cousin's bed with towels on me and people trying to wake me up.
Mm-hmm. Do you remember that feeling of waking up confused and sick? I imagine? Yeah. I was so scared. I was so scared I was gonna get in trouble. Mm-hmm. And my parents weren't even there. We, we went home with one of my friends parents who were drinking at a party next door. So did you question your relationship with alcohol at that point?
Or was the fear, I'm gonna get in trouble, and the questioning your relationship with alcohol would come later? Well, after that experience, I think, you know, my mom was an active. Addiction at that time and had never talked to me about alcohol use, but had accused me of drinking at times. Like I remember coming home that next day and I slept all day and was just in a really bad mood 'cause I was hungover and, um, she didn't say anything then.
And I had kind of written off drinking for a little while and I was in eighth grade and I remember her accusing me of drinking at other parties where kids were drinking. And I was so angry 'cause I was like, I wasn't drinking. Mm-hmm. You didn't call me out when I was, but now you're saying that I am when I actually wasn't.
So I had that feeling a lot of my high school days of drinking as well at parties when I would be like the Kelly that was the designated driver or the Kelly who needed to be carried home. And I was always trying to like, try on, which felt more authentic to me. Um, and the extremes. Total extremes. Yeah.
First born girl totally responsible, swore off drinking in eighth grade. I mean, having kids ourself, that sounds alarmingly young. Right. Uh, but at the time it felt kind of regular. Mm-hmm. And then, or yeah, you're gonna drink to excess and nothing in between, it sounds like. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't know how to moderate anything.
Mm-hmm. And you liked the effects that alcohol gave you? Loved the looseness, the fun, loved that. Yes, I could. The inhibitions. And also, you know, I was very, because then, you know, I was going through puberty and my body was changing and I was very hyper aware of that. And so the alcohol helped calm all the overthinking and like insecurities that I had.
Um, and I didn't have to think about anything. So this continued until H 35. Pretty much at different levels, like being a big drink. Were you still being a big drinker or not drinking at all, or were you trying Okay. It was still, yeah, I was, I never was like, I need to give this up. And, and when I eventually stopped drinking, I didn't have that epiphany either.
Um, but it was, uh, I was pregnant, so I didn't drink for nine months, and it was the best I had ever felt. But, you know, as soon as that baby was born, um, shortly after that, I started drinking again. Um, I wouldn't drink for 40 days of lent. I'd give it up. I felt great. And then as soon as I started drinking again, I was back to binge drinking.
Um, and so it wasn't until the last year of my drinking that I was pretty much drinking every day. Um, it was the trying, the extremes that you picked up on, was it, did you feel like it was problematic for you? Or were you just annoyed with the consequences? Oh, great question. Um, it depends on how you measure problematic.
It was internally problematic for me. I didn't have a whole lot of external consequences. Um, I mean, I guess it depends on who you asked. You know, my husband would probably say there were more external, he never knew what he was signing up for. When we'd go out drinking, it would start off as a good night, and sometimes it would end up as a good night.
Sometimes it would end up as, um, you know, me falling down. Um, yeah. So it just, it was so unpredictable. Um, but it was, it was, it was always the internal struggle. Like I was doing something wrong. I said something, I regretted, I did something, I regretted. Um, and nobody could see that piece of it for me. Yeah, the internal shame and the head space that it takes up.
And the acting out of alignment with yourself. And the mystery. The mystery, the detective work the next day of, what had you done? What had you said, who's mad at you? You know, and the anxiety, just the ongoing anxiety that would just continue until I had another drink. Mm-hmm. And usually after I would have major episodes that I, is how I describe it, you know, I drank too much.
I forgot things I was trying to piece together the night, um, that I would be like, oh my gosh, I'm not drinking all week. I'll, I'm, I'll wait until Friday or Saturday until I dry out. Um, and that's when the anxiety would start to lessen. And then I'd start drinking again and start the cycle all over. Yeah.
It's so interesting to me that like through pregnancy, you felt great. Through Lent you felt great, but you didn't relate that to, I could always feel great, I could ditch this drink and always feel good. Never. It was like you kept going back. Mm-hmm. Because why? Because I thought it was gonna be different.
Oh. Every time I thought, okay, I, you know, I was trying, I think now I was always trying to prove to myself, like, I thought somebody who had a drinking problem was somebody who was waking up and drinking. Um, I remember when some of my clients found out that I wrote an autobiography. They were like, so were you drinking during our sessions?
So this idea of what somebody with. Alcohol use disorder drinks. Like I fell into that too, thinking that I had these qualifiers of, um, you know, I'd lose my job or I had a DUI or, um, you know, I was drinking during the day. I never did any of those things. So for me it was like, I just need to take a break.
Once I take a break, then I'll be able to go back to drinking normally. Well, I never drink normally, so I don't know what I was thinking. Not since I first drink at 12. Yeah. It's, you're so, um, relatable to me and so many women out there because we think we just have to figure out the right formula for our drinking.
Mm-hmm. Right. If we figure that out. Then we can keep drinking. And you know what, it's pretty confusing. Maybe in a lot of ways we're privileged with spouses that stayed with us, or jobs that we can continue to hold. But when there's not those obvious outward consequences plus like being a firstborn girl, I think there's something to that.
Like hiding. And I would like be the first one up, sweeping the floor, making the lunches to, to, for my guilt over my drinking. I would overly perform the next day. Right. Absolutely. I would be overly responsible. Mm-hmm. And, um, to try to make up for any wrongdoings that I had done. It was my own repentance.
Yes, absolutely. You know, and for me it was, um, destructive. It was like. I was really into running and I would get up at five 30 in the morning and go run 12 miles to train for a marathon after I had been out till two 30 in the morning. And it was like, you know, and at that time I was smoking cigs drinking, and it was like, no, you're gonna get up and you're gonna still do that.
A punishment. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you had your babies and then you would, you would not drink during pregnancies and then drink after they were born. Mm-hmm. Tell me about parenting and drinking. How does that go? Woo. Well, um, you know, when my husband and I first started having kids, we were living in Santa Monica and it was so wonderful.
The weather was great. We were both starting out in our careers and, um. Life itself was awesome, but we didn't have any family support. And so we had at that time three kids within two years of each other. So, um, by the time we left California, we had three kids, ages four, two, and a newborn. And I also experienced postpartum anxiety and panic.
So, you know, knowing what I know as a therapist, I thought it was okay to, to. Not take medication for some reason, but self-medicate with alcohol. Um, I knew what I knew, but for some reason I didn't apply it to myself. And, um, you know, I was so worried what Prozac would do to my breast milk for my baby, but I was okay drinking wine while I was nursing.
And so, you know, I used it as a way to, to cope with anxiety and sleeplessness. Um, and I was able to manage it while my kids were young, um, and my drinking. But then I had this moment, we had ended up having a fourth child and I had increased my drinking because I was more stressed out with the more kids we had and mm-hmm.
Working full time and just feeling like I couldn't. Control anything. Um, and alcohol helped take the edge off. And I became habitual in terms of coming home from work and drinking alcohol while I was getting the kids ready for bed and making lunches and prepping for the next day. And I had a moment in my kitchen where I was like, looking at these kids and I thought at some point they're gonna need to be driven to activities and we're not just gonna be home where I felt quote unquote safe with these kids.
And, um, I thought, I, I'm gonna have to stop drinking at some point. And I didn't drink at stop drinking at that point. But I did have those feelings of like, I don't wanna be drinking like this when my kids are older. I felt like I was getting away with something 'cause I didn't think they noticed. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I relate to that so much. Tell me about the postpartum, uh, what were, how did that manifest in you? How did that feel and, and how did you get rid of it? Just pour alcohol on it? Well, initially, yes. Um, you know, with our first, he was over 10 pounds and I had, um, tried to go into labor for two days and ended up with a C-section.
And then the recovery was really horrible. And, you know, my mom was there, my husband's mom was there, and like all hands were on deck. And then everybody left. And I am with my husband this first time, parents having this traumatic birthing experience and needing to return to work and trying to figure out childcare.
And, I mean, just as I say it now, I'm like, how did we do it? It was, it was so much, um, and. Not being able to catch my breath. And eventually I went on medication when I went back to work and I couldn't, you know, drink as frequently as I was. I don't think I associated it at the time. Mm-hmm. That like the alcohol was helping relieve some of my symptoms.
It was just something my husband and I participated in because we were home bound with a, a child, um, which makes it sound like a prison center. And you were always drinkers, so it was no different. Really. It was no different. Yeah. Correct. We used to go out to bars and drink with our friends. Yeah. Now we were at home drinking with our baby.
Um, and so I just kept on that same cycle for all of our kids. And, you know, another kid had, um, colic and, um, I had gestational diabetes. So like pre I did not, I liked feeling sober during pregnancy. Yeah. But I didn't actually like pregnancy. Yeah. And we had tough kids and, um. Yeah, I see my, my siblings who have young kids and I'm like, I don't miss those days.
It was, it, it doesn't bring me good memories when I think about my kids being that young, it was so hard for you. It was too much. You were bringing the candle at both ends. You didn't have sleep. You body was recovering from something traumatic. You didn't have the experiences that you wanted in birth or labor necessarily.
Colic could drive anybody crazy, right? What I'm hearing though also is, um, you didn't wanna feel the way you were feeling. You didn't wanna feel bad or depressed or anxious, so alcohol was a cure for that. And it was the same thing you wanted. Like, be lighthearted, be fun, be funny, be loose. Maybe don't take everything so seriously.
And perhaps that's part of family values that you had, right? A good time, good timers. Yes. Yes. And I was so, I was so upset with myself for not liking having babies. Like I knew I wanted a big family. I come from a big family. My husband comes from a big family. That was the plan. That's what we wanted. But I am not good with newborns or I said I liked my kids once they turned five, you know, where they could communicate and were a little more independent.
Um, and so I felt really bad about that and. I wanted, I wanted to be laid back and carefree and not have a care in the world. And instead I was like, oh my gosh, I went on to get, I have bumps because having a rough time in the infant stage doesn't equal, you're a bad mom, but you don't know anything different yet.
So I'm sure you had those fears. What have I done? And I'm not good at this and I don't like this. Right. And you have no idea that you will grow into loving this more than anything, but you don't know that yet. So those are scary thoughts to have. And poor alcohol on it. The best numbing agent you could find.
Right? The good old Well, yeah. Yeah. And I did it four times. Like how crazy making is that? Maybe next time will be better. Maybe next time will be better. Oh, interesting. You thought about the kids, like you thought about the drinks, like if I just keep doing it, if I just keep practicing, I'm gonna hit it right.
One of these times. Right. Every one of these times I'll get it right. Yeah, yeah. But that didn't happen. Well, it was the time of mommy wine culture. Mm. So it was a time where you were being encour. This was being encouraged to all of us. And I relate to you. So when my kids were little, my husband, I worked part-time and my husband traveled a lot for work and we used to be social together.
We also met in a bar, and then he was traveling, he was going to Vegas. He was getting awarded for his drinking. He's a sales guy. He was going to private concerts and bottle service, and I don't know what he was doing, living the high life, working hard, being rewarded for Dr. And I was home. Trying to work and take care of the kids, trying to get the right train to get to daycare on time.
And then the dinner bathtime bedtime routine. And I was lonely. Yeah. And I was bored because it is boring to talk to two year olds and four year olds. Right. Like, and it was hard. Mm-hmm. And definitely drinking took the edge off for me of those things. And, um, I wanted desperately to be a good mom, and I wanted desperately to be there for my kids.
And also answering a three-year-old's questions all night long gets a little tiring. And I didn't have, I mean, I couldn't go out anymore. My social life had come to a halt because I was home with the kids. Right. And that was a big disruption. So I feel you. But the messaging was, mommy, mommy drinks wine. I wine you wine.
Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Tell me, how did that play into your drinking at all? Do you think that had an effect on you and how you viewed alcohol? Well, look, I mean. I was so self-aware of alcohol and the impact it had on me throughout my life as I explained it, was that snapshot that gave me permission.
Kind of like New Year's Eve gives permission, or St. Patrick's Day gives permission to drink, to access. This was an opportunity where nobody could go out at night in my circle, right? Because everybody, mm-hmm. That I was hanging out with had small kids. So we'd have play dates and somebody would bring a bottle of wine, or the neighbors come over and sit on the porch.
And so, you know, the messaging was, oh my gosh, this is so tiring. Of course you need a glass of wine after raising kids. You know? I mean, I saw it around me, but then I, I, I remember saying to my dad when I finally gave it up. Hey, I decided to stop drinking. And he goes, how are you gonna raise those four kids sober?
I could barely do a drunk. You know? So I think that even coming from my own father who was a generation older than me, you know, it was historically passed down from family to family. I mean, that's what everybody did. Who, who didn't drink? Yeah. Like, I didn't know anybody who didn't drink until, you know, family members started getting sober.
And I saw that modeled for me. Mm-hmm. But yeah, it was just so normalized and accepted and, and it, we deserved it. Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah. We earned it. Yeah, for sure. I, um, grew up in a small town in Wisconsin and Wisconsin. Drinking culture is, it's insane. It's like. Everywhere. I mean, I didn't know anybody who didn't drink, so, um, it's pretty hard to put yourself on the oats like that, but tell me about, okay, so you deserve it.
You also say your mom was in active addiction. Mm-hmm. In your growing up years, did you call yourself in active addiction when you were drinking in this way? Goodness. Um, I didn't, I didn't. You were somehow different than her. I, but you were drinking daily, let's say. Yeah. Most I was drinking most days. Um, then not, yeah.
I was drink. Yeah. Um, and I guess to label, I mean, she probably wouldn't call herself in active addiction and she's 25 years sober. You know, she would probably just say she was drinking. And I guess that's the same for me. I was drinking too. Um. Did you relate to her? Did you, did you have feelings about her drinking?
And did you compare yourself to that at all? No, I felt she hid it very well. Um, and for my parents, it, like you described with your husband, it was so much a part of their business that, like, I didn't see my mom falling down. Um, she was able to just, she called herself a maintenance drinker, you know, she just kind of would pour, I don't wanna speak for her, but, you know, from years of talking about this now, she would say she would just be working, you know, at the bar and be doing the books and pour a drink.
Um, and my parents drank at home. Um, I remembered more my dad's aftermath of drinking, um, than my mom's. So I, but they both drank very differently than I felt I did in terms of how it started, what happened while they were drinking. What happened after, you know, and I had uncles and cousins and we all had different substances and ways that we would use.
Mm-hmm. So I was always looking for like, am I like that? I was always looking for a model of, am I that bad? Right. And I could, I couldn't find it. Um, yeah. You also always had people who were worse than you. Correct. And I loved those people. Yeah. Yeah. I loved to surround myself with those people. Mm-hmm. So I didn't have to be the worst one.
Right. Yep. Mm-hmm. And so then it looked normal. Even your problematic relationship looked pretty normal compared to somebody else's. Yes. Absolutely. So when did you decide to quit? How did this go down? Because I can't imagine in that family with what you knew and these four kids that are not going away.
Mm-hmm. How you're gonna uproot your life, change your identity. You met your husband in that bar. Yeah. How are you gonna keep a marriage, be a mom, have a job, and stay connected to your family? Were those risks things you were risking by quitting drinking? Absolutely. I mean, my first thought was my parents got divorced when my mom got sober.
There's no way this marriage is gonna last. Mm-hmm. That I was like, how do I engage in a marriage with somebody I met at a bar where most of what we did was go to bars? Um, how is that relationship gonna last? And that was my number one fear. But what had happened was my best friend from growing up had gotten sober.
Three months before I decided to stop drinking. And she drank similarly as I did at that time. She wasn't a mom. Um, she was still kind of living a single life. Um, and I had some judgment about her at that time in the life she was living. Um, and jealousy. Yeah, jealousy. Mainly jealous. Yes. Absolutely. Um, envy.
Yes. All the things. Um, and she called me on, on her New Year's Day and said, Kelly, I have a problem with alcohol and I'm gonna go to an AA meeting this afternoon. And I was like, oh my gosh. I thought she was being so extreme. Mm-hmm. Um, but very dramatic. I, yes, very dramatic as we tend to be, right? Yeah. And, um, I was like, okay, good for you, you know, check it out.
Lemme know how it is. Um, and had watched her. Continue to show up for meetings, continue on her path to sobriety. And I saw such a change in her that was so positive. She seemed calmer. Like we would meet for coffee on the weekends, we'd go to exercise classes, and then I became jealous and envious of like, wait, my best friend who I grew up drinking with is now on the other side.
And I was jealous of that. And I, mm-hmm. I felt a lot of shame too. Like how, how was I continuing to drink when we had talked about the way we had drank when we were both drinking together and having remorse and piecing, uh, putting pieces of the puzzle back together. And, um, and I just watched and heard and listened and supported.
And we had gone to an exercise class on a Sunday morning and that Saturday night. Business as usual. Husband and I drinking at home. Kids were in bed, we stayed up late. I thought it was a good time and we were working out and I felt like I was gonna throw up this whole time during this exercise class and we're doing burpees, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I gotta make it through this class.
And we went outside and we were both getting in our cars and we said goodbye. And she just looked at me and she's like, how's your drinking been? And it started pouring rain. And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm really struggling. Um, I had been drinking more, needing more because my tolerance had gone up. And um, she said, why don't you come to a women's AA meeting with me sometime?
And, uh, I was like, well, I can. I have all these. Open bottles of wine in the fridge. And she's like, I was like, I have to drink 'em first. And she goes, or you could pour 'em out. Um, and I didn't know what I was gonna do, but she said, I'm going to a meeting on Wednesday if you wanna come with me. And I came home and I said, you know, I cried the whole way home and listened to music.
And it was so, like, it was such a spiritual awakening, so to speak. And I came home and I said to Ryan, oh my gosh, I think I have a problem. I need to stop drinking. I'm gonna go to a meeting with Bridget on Wednesday. And he is like, wait a second. And then he thought, I'm being dramatic. I mean, yes, you have a problem with drinking, but also you're being so weird right now.
Yeah. Stop talking like that. You could try to like not drink as much, right. Or wanna pump the breaks a little bit. How? Why don't you just drink on your birthday or on that Mexico trip or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, and I said, I don't know, but. I'm gonna try this. And so I didn't drink from Sunday until that meeting on Wednesday and talk about feeling like my people were there and the relatability there were moms with jobs, with young kids that drank the way I did.
And once we started sharing our stories, I, for the first time in my life, did not feel so alone. Mm-hmm. Um, probably in anything. And, um, I remember a woman there who was telling me she had just celebrated six months. She said she went to a wedding over the weekend. And I was like, how did you not drink? And then another woman was telling me she went to a concert sober.
I was like, impossible. How? Like, I couldn't believe it. Right. And I had like, weddings come my si, but two of my sister-in-laws were getting married in six months. And I was like, one, I didn't wanna be an embarrassment at their wedding. You know? Mm-hmm. And two, I didn't wanna be sober, but I didn't know how that was gonna shake out, but mm-hmm.
I just kept trying to not drink, and the first six months were the hardest ever. You walked into that meeting and you didn't drink again. Mm-hmm. Wow. And I had gone to that same place for a meeting in Lincoln Park when I was 21 years old, and I was the only woman, I was the only white woman, and I was the only woman person in their twenties there and laughed and was like, okay, I'm definitely not an alcoholic.
I don't have a problem. I just had a bad night. And then full circle moment, went back to that place and was like, oh yeah, I definitely fit in. Yeah. I feel you. I wrote in my journal, in my diary, when I was 21 legal drinking age, that I was afraid I was an alcoholic. I would quit drinking 21 years later when I was 42.
Yeah. But yeah, I always knew there was, I liked it a little more than most and a little more than I should, and I had a bit of a hold on me. Wow. So when you were 21, those, you already, you at 21, you thought you might have a problem, so you just went to go check Yeah. Just give yourself a checkup and, and realize like, Nope, definitely not.
Well, it, it was after a bad night, you know, I couldn't remember anything. I didn't remember how I got home and I was also in school for social work and we had to go to meetings. Mm-hmm. And, and that was before. So I had gone to a meeting to do my research. Right. Susie Social worker, like, Hmm. I, your AA helps people.
Yeah. And had done a report on it and everything. And then like six months later I was like, oh, I went to that place called aa. I should probably go see, you know, as my, for myself if I belong there. Yeah. Yeah. And didn't but Heather, like you, I look at journals over the years and like setting intentions on December 31st.
God, please help me find a way to stop drinking. I was Bridget Jones. Yeah. Don't drink too much tonight. Don't drink too much tonight. Stop smoking. Stop drinking. Okay. Drink a little, smoke a little, you know, like how many drink like Yeah, totally. And I also was social work major through college. Worked at a halfway house for criminal women that abused drugs and alcohol and I would sometimes take them to their meetings.
Mm-hmm. Also was so scared because it was an unlocked halfway house. They could. Escape if they wanted to. Right. I wasn't gonna stop them, that they would find me underage at the bars. 'cause I was also there with my fake id. So I was like having this job, being responsible. Those people had problems. I didn't.
And also obviously on the nights I wasn't working, I was partying. Yeah, absolutely. Same, same, same. Such an internal complex. It is. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you know, I think that that too, I remember like when my uncle got sober, I like, I always, I was always the drunk person in the room who found the sober person and was like interviewing them.
Yes. Like what's it like? And, and I felt like I was so attracted to that because I also loved how real and authentic people were with their story. And it just, IW yeah. I was always attracted to the people who were sober. And wanting me too. Like how did you do it? How, how? Oh my gosh. I worked with a woman who would maybe have a glass, a half a glass of wine at Christmas.
Mm-hmm. And I was like, how? And do you have friends? Mm-hmm. And you're married and your husband likes you. Like, how do you, what? What do you mean? And like, don't you want more? Don't you always want more? And what do you do? What do you do with your time? Like, do you just go bowling? I don't get it. What do you do?
It was so fascinating to me. And when you say interview, I'm like almost interrogate people that didn't drink because I was so curious about what that would look like. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But sobriety suits me so well. That's why I know what's right for me. Yeah. Well, I can love it. It's the best surprise of my life.
Well, and you also say, you know, for people that are listening who are trying this on, or maybe in their first, you know, three months, six months, year, whatever, um. I had a hard time finding activities that didn't. Involve alcohol. You say bowling. I'm like, oh my gosh. Well, we used to love bowling and drinking at the guy bowling alley.
Everything goes with drinking. Yeah. I was gonna yoga classes. That was like champagne and yoga, you know? Mm-hmm. It was so hard. I mean, even like nice movie theaters, they bring in drinks, you know? It was like, and for me it was, what was so hard was like knowing I needed to get outta my house at the time that like, I loved drinking, which was around five o'clock.
Mm-hmm. But then also being like, I don't know where to go. So that's when I go to meetings too. 'cause that felt safe. Yeah. Because like, no, no place felt safe to me. My house was triggering. Yeah. And so were places that I saw alcohol being served. Yeah. TJ Maxx is a lovely place. Thrift stores. Thrift stores are lovely places in the evenings if you need a place to go.
I know. I totally hear you. So what did early sobriety look like for you, especially as a mom? Mm. Well. Once I got my husband on board, um, the kids still talk about it. They'd do Sunday morning movies because I would go to a meeting on Sunday mornings and he would get up with the kids and they'd make breakfast and they'd pick a movie that they wanted to watch.
Um, so that was their thing. Um, but yeah, you know, it was tough 'cause I needed to do a lot. Like I, I needed to change my behaviors. I needed to give myself more breaks. I was feeling so overwhelmed as a mom, and then removing the alcohol made me more overwhelmed initially and anxious. Mm-hmm. And, um, so, you know, being with other sober moms and finding out how did they do it?
How were, you know, a lot of the sober moms I had met too were going through a divorce. And so like that was really important to me, finding people who had stopped drinking and their partners still drink, Ryan still drinks. He doesn't drink, he's not a problematic drinker. Um, and so like, what did that look like?
And what does sober sex with your spouse look like? And like, I, I need, I'm. I'm an experiential learner, so I needed somebody to like walk me through it and also show me that they got through it. I think that's what was so helpful for me too in early sobriety. Like you reading, listening to podcasts, like I wanted to learn how people were doing this.
Mm-hmm. And I got sober 12 years ago and so the whole, um, culture has changed since then. Yeah. Um, and, and I think it is so amazing that there is a whole alcohol free culture now that. People have so many more resources. Yeah. You know, and, and don't feel like they have to label their self. I was so, um, resistant to wanting to be labeled an alcoholic.
Um, am I, am I not? If I would've just abandoned that word and said, is alcohol working or not? I might've gotten sober sooner, but I was like so attached to that label and mm-hmm. Had taken, you know, the, I'm sure you did too. And people listening like the test, am I an alcoholic? Am I not? How many questions and how many did, did I get right or wrong?
And, you know, label me or don't, um, instead of just how is it working in my life? And it wasn't, and that was an easier question to answer for sure. And that word was such a, a barrier to me quitting. Because you would get that if you quit. Not if you kept drinking, you know? Yeah. And I didn't want that label.
But you didn't either, even though AA was where you found your home. It's very interesting. But community is everything. And I also resisted that I resisted community. I didn't wanna be like those people. I wasn't those people. Mm-hmm. Um, I didn't think I needed it. And I was so wrong. I was so wrong. I was four years in until I found a community of sober people.
And now my God, I'm not letting them go. It's maybe you can do it without, but it's so much easier when you surround yourself with people that get it. And I always say it's like hiking. Like you need to see somebody go before you and come back and make it out and tell you how the terrain is and is it that high and isn't that hard, and how much longer.
And we need to see people succeed so we can too. And it sounds like you had those moms who were doing it, who were parenting sober, who were going to weddings, who were going to concerts, and that gave you a little more faith that you would be able to do it too. Yeah. Positive modeling for sure. How about your friendships and your social life?
How did that shift? Because clearly you had surrounded yourself with drinkers your entire life. Yes. Mm-hmm. And everybody was shocked when I stopped drinking because most people I hung out with drink like I did. And so if I stopped drinking, you know, my best friend stopped drinking, I stopped drinking. I was kind of this like ripple effect.
Um, you know, I had a really tight group of girlfriends, um, in high school and I stayed close to them. Um, nobody really asked me about my sobriety. Nobody, um, mentioned if they read my book or not. After I had been sober for five years. It was just a big part of my life that I felt was separate. Mm-hmm. And I really wanted a connected life.
And so, um, as hard as it was, I broke up with my high school girlfriends, um, and remained still good friends with my friend Bridget, who got sober a few months ahead of me. And she still is very good friends with them. Um. But it, my life just changed and I was craving deeper connection and I felt like I wasn't being my authentic self.
And in when we would all get together and I felt like there was this huge piece that nobody was asking me about that was so important to me. Um, and so now like one-on-one relationships are what fill me. Mm-hmm. And I make it a point to carve out those intimate experiences. Um, and most of them are sober.
Um, you know, the good news is my mom's sober. Our relationship has been better since I've been sober. Um, you know, I'm very close to my sisters, my brother's sober. We see each other once a week and work out together. Um, and so it's just, um, it's been a, an awesome ride. I love that. Thank you for your honesty.
It, it means so much to me. Again, so many parallels. I had one person who got sober with me my first year, and her name was Bridget. So we both had our Bridgets. Yes. And um, yeah, I, my long-term friends with long histories have faded and it has changed and um, there's definitely been a growing in different directions and it's painful, it's terrible, it's hard.
And also it might be right, you know, for everyone. And like you said, there was this elephant in the room. You didn't feel safe to talk about it. They didn't know who you had become. Mm-hmm. And it just wasn't an environment where you could share that piece of you and you wanted a connected life. You wanted to be your whole self with whoever you are with.
So you sought out people that you could do that with. The cool thing is, is it does make room for new, for new folks. Right. And new people and new friendships. So I love that. But yeah, for anyone listening, I like, I wanted to quit drinking and have everything else stay the exact same. Just I'll be over here not drinking on the side.
Nobody noticed. Right, right. What I didn't know is this would be a really beautiful awakening for my whole life, including, um, including tough stuff that comes with change and loss, but ultimately alignment and beauty as well. Mm-hmm. So now you're a mom of teenagers, so how has sobriety changed your parenting style?
Do they, do they still do the Sunday movies together? They did. Now they're Sunday cats and they were like, oh, Sunday morning movies. Um, okay. So it's crazy. April's a big birthday month for us. Everybody, five of the six of us have April birthdays, house's of fire with these Aries and every, I will have four teenagers, one's away at, at college and, um, junior, freshman and seventh grader.
Um, I have been very open with them about my journey. Um, this piece that I just think is really funny, um, it was just the St. Patrick's Day parade, uh, in Chicago and the river was green and the two high school kids with tradition, everybody like takes the Allen and they go down and watch the river get dyed.
And my daughter was talking about these ju milk jugs that kids carry and it's got vodka and juice in it, and police officers were taking it away and we had. Had had discussion about this over the years and they weren't participating. At least I, so I thought, um, and allegedly, allegedly. So, um, you know, it was just a normal day at home and, um, my son comes home and he's a freshman and I said, I just have to ask like, did you have a sip?
Did you have anything to drink? And he's like, mom, I'm almost 15 years sober. I'm not giving that up now. And I was cracking up. But, um, you know, it's a matter of time, right? Like our oldest felt similar like that too, um, mm-hmm. When before the experimental years started coming and he's in college. And, um, you know, I've certainly been to my fair share of college parties on campus with him, um, or off campus, I should say.
Um, and look. The likelihood that one of four of them will develop some kind of addiction is very high. Those are the statistics. I'm not putting a label on any of them. Um, but my parents never talked to me about it. Hmm. And that did a disservice because I was so afraid. And so now, you know, by me modeling as well as having had these open discussions with them mm-hmm.
I think that if one of them does develop a problem, they'll know who to turn to. Um, and look, they have the question like, why, why can dad drink? And I. Mom can't, and it's not a matter of can or can't, it's a difference of choice. Mm-hmm. Um, and that dad doesn't act differently when he drinks and he's who he is when he drinks, when he doesn't drink.
Um, but they don't have, I mean, my kids were 6, 4, 2 and nine months old when I got sober. My daughter does have one memory of me leaving the house and drinking at the neighbor's house with a walkie talk, uh, baby monitor. Mm-hmm. Um, but they know me as a sober mom and, um, they're proud of that. And, you know, they write me a card or bake me a cake for my sober ver sober anniversary.
Um, but it's just open dialogue, you know? They know I have a lot of addiction in my family. They also know that I have a lot of sobriety in my family. Um, so it's just, it's like talking about nutrition and moving your body and sleep. It's another component. Yeah. Wow. I love that. So how. Do you help them navigate their own?
Is there drinking pressure in their social worlds, especially at college? I mean, how do you navigate that with alongside them? Yeah. Um, look, we're getting ready to go to an all inclusive in Mexico where they're considered adults. Right. Um, I don't monitor it per se in terms of like, I also don't wanna be helicoptering them.
You don't police it necessarily? I don't police them. Yeah. They are not allowed to have parties at our house. I don't buy alcohol for them. You know, some of the things that I hear other families do, um, that might work for them, but, you know, they're very respectful. I've never seen my kids drunk, although I suspect the older two have been.
Mm-hmm. The older one has certainly told me about it, you know, um, he went through a bad breakup lately. And, um, you know, I check in on him. Mm-hmm. Um, not just emotionally, but like, are you drinking more? How's that impacting your mood? You know, just, um, when we don't talk about it, it leaves us in the dark, you know, as the person who's engaging and the person who might be of support.
So, I don't love it having kids transition into drinking age. Yeah. A little less than the legal age, but Yeah. Do you recognize it's, again, and I don't wanna normalize it, right, like, oh, well, that's what they Yeah. College, well, yeah, but we, but they're also, when they're 18, yeah. I mean, they can serve our country.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Can they have a drink? You know, even as a sober person myself, it feels like if you're an adult, you're an adult in all these ways, then you can make that choice, you know? Well, and it's, I mean, yes, it's so important as parents, but it's also like, that was another component that I just wanted to touch base on, is that.
People were so uncomfortable about drinking in front of me when I stopped drinking. Mm-hmm. I mean, even till this day, my mother-in-law will pour a glass of wine and be like, oh, I'm cutting back and I hope you're not judging me. And I'm like, this has, I mean, this was my issue. Yeah. I, I'm always around people who are drinking, you know?
Yeah. And if I don't wanna be, I'll remove myself or, you know, um, I'll take care of it myself. I, I am not monitoring or policing anybody's drinking. Yeah. Uh, yeah, totally. And it feels weird for somebody who would normally be drinking not to drink because of you. Um, in some ways. Thank you. And also, like you do you, I'll do me right?
Yeah. Like, this feels, now this feels weird, right? Yeah. Yeah. With the kids though. Um, I had some experiences too with my daughter at college and I was like panicked about it, bringing my little one, going to visit the big one. A big tailgating game day. Yeah, the whole thing. I knew what was going on and I was just panicked.
And what happened was, I think it's a different culture now. I'm not gonna say there isn't drinking and all that stuff 'cause of course there is, but it isn't the same as when I was in college. And they don't care about alcohol as much as they care about me. It's what you said, like they respect you. Like they wanted to make sure I, they weren't looking to get their drinks or anything.
They were making sure I was okay every step of the way. So like, I, I, alcohol was my priority over everything, but for them it wasn't their priority. I was their priority. And, um, so yeah, open dialogue, they've watched it. Um, they were a little older, so they, they saw, they, I mean, they saw me drink too much when I wish I wouldn't have, right?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, um, I really tried to hide it. I hope those memories are few, but I. They knew and they got to watch me come out of it and they see me now. And I think, it's not that I didn't have a problem, it's that I was able to overcome something. And yeah, now they're more in the know, and your kids are so more in the know about their history and their upbringing and what alcohol can do and the good and the bad.
So, um, I love that open dialogue. I think that's a huge, I bet a lot of people listening have questions about alcohol and raising teens and I think that is the best advice you could give is to be honest and, and keep the dialogue going. Yeah. What has been your biggest surprise about sobriety? Good or bad?
My biggest surprise is that it keeps getting better. Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm not Pollyanna about it. I don't have rose colored glasses on. You know, I have bad weeks, I have bad days, but like I. You know, as you know, I did a segment on Good Morning America last week, and, um, my sister text me from my hotel room and she was like, how are you doing?
Are you nervous? Blah, blah, blah. And she's like, you know, none of this would happen if would've happened if you weren't sober. And it JI like forget because, you know, yes, it's a daily practice, but it's also like, okay, I mean, not to be overconfident, but I'm like, I haven't had a drink in 12 years. Like, I don't think about it, so I forget.
A lot of the blessings in my life are because I'm not drinking. Mm-hmm. Um, and like you talked about too, like this overachiever over-functioning, like, yeah, maybe I would've, but it wouldn't have felt the way that it, like the insides don't match the, now, now my insides match. My outsides. My outsides and my insides were so misaligned when I was still drinking.
Um, and that was a constant conflict. So yeah, the, the reminder that like, it just keeps getting better the longer we stick around. Yeah. And, um, let's talk about like advice you would give to a mom who's feeling stuck in the cycle but afraid to let go. One thing you just mentioned is like. You, you, it's less, um, it takes up less head space the further you go, right?
Like it's less effort, not drinking, becomes less effort. Mm-hmm. Your first 30 days are freaking hard. It's so hard. That's why I'm like anyone doing the 30 day challenges, stop doing the hardest part over and over again. It's the hardest part and you're not getting the benefits go longer. Go a little longer be, and that's like my preach because it becomes effortless.
You're Dr. I, you don't think about Dr. Very rarely do you think about drinking, I imagine or have a craving. It's, it's so rare. It doesn't take so much effort to not drink. You get to not drink and you get to go on Good Morning America. Like that's freaking awesome, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. What else would you share with somebody who feels like stuck in the cycle?
You know, I work now as a licensed clinical social worker with people who are practicing moderation management. You know, that I tried that for a long time. Didn't work so well for me 'cause I had a hard time man, moderating. Um, but like, even that brings a lot of clarity and purpose and intention of like slowing down and thinking about things.
And so, you know, had I. I think for me with like my sober community and how that's changed over the years, like no surprise here, I wanted to be the perfect AA person and I wanted to get through my steps and have my sponsor and like make my amends and I wanted to get through every step, you know, so that I could like be clean of all then win the award at the end.
What my reward? Yeah. The award and get a trophy. Yeah. Gold star. And it was like, if there were times that I wa like, you know, in the beginning it was really structured. It was like you have to go to this many meetings we're suggested and reach out to this many people. And you know, and, and as an overwhelmed mom, that overwhelmed me and that made me feel like if I wasn't hitting those spots, I felt like I wasn't doing it Right.
Failure, I think that that's the carryover too. Like there's no right way to do this. Yeah. You know, there are way, there are suggestions on how it works, but like, try to let go of. The perfection of it. Like just try it on. If you're drinking every day, try drinking three times a week. Try, you know, writing it down.
Try recognizing when you're triggered to wanna drink and go for a walk instead. You know, like, I think behavior changes take time. Mm-hmm. And a tripped me up too, because like, I think I was just so afraid of like, messing up is why I didn't like, I would've felt too guilty leaving that meeting and drinking.
Yeah. Because I was like, oh, that was my commitment. I gotta stay on there scared straight. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It worked for you, but maybe not for all. I'm all about, um, drinking less for me. Drinking less led to drinking none. So I am not against drinking less. And, um, for three years I was doing this on off drinking.
It's a diff that's where our story is different. Like you walked into an AA meeting and never drank again. I, I. I kept trying to, this moderation thing for, I mean, I left claws in the bottle and was really, really looking, but I don't see any of that as failure. There's no lost work, and quitting drinking became a choice for me eventually.
Right? Like now I, I don't desire to drink. So it worked and it's easier to not drink when you lose the desire for it, but it took. Different types of practice. It's just evaluating, it's just self discovery. Yeah. As you alluded to. And it's just trying different coping skills. I didn't have any coping skills.
It was only alcohol. That's, that's the only thing I ever had for good days and bad. And when it's raining and when it's snowing and when the sun is shining, the answer has always been alcohol because I didn't know anything else. So it's a process of learning and self discovery and I totally agree. Try something, practice something.
You don't have to have hard rules. Mm-hmm. Drinking glass can lead to drinking. None. And most people that work with me when they start, they wanna have a glass of wine at dinner every once in a while. That's always everybody's goal on their complimentary call and it's Okay, great. You know, and, um, they end up never drinking again.
Right. They're like, I don't want it anymore. And it's like, that feels a lot more freer, but it can take some time to desire that. Mm-hmm. If you could go back in time to your younger mom self, what would you say?
Um, you know, the common theme is I was just always so hard on myself, and if I could have removed that chip from my brain, it, I would've enjoyed the ride more. You know, like I was so hung up on like making sure my baby ate and slept and ate the right things and, you know, um, making sure that I found a job, like I worked at a high school as a high school counselor because like, I wanted to be home with my kids when they got home from school.
And like trying to make all of the things work really made life. Extremely unbearable for me. So like, if I would've just let go of some things, um, you know, I was, I, I was so, um, committed to breastfeeding. I'm like, what if I would've started medication right after I gave birth and like, didn't breastfeed, you know, and felt calmer.
Like maybe I would've enjoyed some of those moments with my newborn or my toddler, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, so that would be, you know, Kelly just let go of some of that stuff. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and also firstborn of five, you know, like I don't always have to be the one in charge. Mm-hmm. Somebody else, like I have a very supportive hands-on husband, you know, um, who maybe wouldn't have loved to do the 2:00 AM feedings, but would have if I let him.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow. We could let go. We don't have to hold up the whole sky. Yeah, yeah. We can ask for help. What the heck. We can delegate. We don't have to have it all together. We can prioritize ourself. These are just the beautiful things that you learn in sobriety, right? Yeah. Seriously. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't know any of that either.
Um, okay, so now you're on Good Morning America. Talking about mental health, talking about drinking, talking about all these things. And your family still owns the bar, is that true? Yep, they do. And, um, uh, is, is there a conflict there? Is it fine? How does that, how does that work for you? Um, so the brother that I'm really close to who is sober, um, manages the bar and, um.
My dad is still in active addiction and I haven't had a relationship with him for probably about five years. My relationship with him was similar to my drinking. It was, you know, I, I tried to manage and control for a long time until it wasn't working anymore. And, um, I think we both just kind of let it fade.
Um, so there's no conflict like, um. The physical location my kids have been to just 'cause there's so much history there for Ryan and I, and that's their family, you know, their grandfather's bar. Um, but I don't go there and drink or anything. It's a younger crowd these days. Mm-hmm. But I still love going to a bar, you know, of my husband and I will sit at a bar and get appetizers and um, you know, I'll get a mocktail.
But um, yeah, that physical place has so many memories and I worked there throughout college and after college and paid for grad school there. So like I am so grateful for that experience, but I don't really hang out there much anymore. It's in your past? It's in my past, yeah. Yeah. And what's next for you on this journey?
I'm trying to figure that out, Heather. You know, um, I've been doing clinical work for 25 years and, um, through Covid, I, you know, and having a physical office space downtown, everything has shifted for me virtually. So I see all my clients, um, from home, um, over a computer and, um, I miss being in, in person with people.
Although, um, this gives me an opportunity to be able to see people from all over Illinois, as you know, being licensed in Illinois, not just a certain neighborhood. Um, so that's been great, but. I dunno. Got some things in the works. You know, I have that movie, that short film I made that I'm trying to find a home for, to do a series, um, you know, maybe through Lifetime or um, made for TV movie.
But, uh, it's hard to break into. Yeah. Tell the listeners about this movie. Tell the, I mean, tell the listeners how we originally met and about your movie. Oh my gosh. And I'll have all the information, of course, in the show notes for people to buy your book, um, follow your movie, go to your website, and all that good stuff.
But we didn't even touch on the movie. Oh. A mutual friend brought us together, which she said you guys will just hit it off and that we did, um, and have so much in common, and did an event together that you hosted and sponsored for Di um, ditch the Drink and um, you were the mc And I sold my books myself.
And then, um, five years after I self-published the book, my husband and I, uh, made a short film 'cause he's an actor. And, um. Hired a production company and raised money in our community, um, to be able to use the film to psychoeducation on women's mental health and alcohol abuse. And it's had its run, um, it's been in, uh, lots of film festivals and won 12 awards for social change.
Um, I think the timing of all of this is spot on. The surgeon General released a, um, warning about the link with alcohol use in cancer, especially for women. Um, and there's just more conversation about it. And I do hope that alcohol use becomes similar to the way cigarettes, um, for sure the movie's called Gray Area.
It is. So I think everybody should see it, but especially women. And it even touches on, um, women being in dangerous situations with men, let's say after drinking. So it, it hits the points. It hits all of our points. We are all with you. We've all been in those situations and. Going back to our original thought about mommy wine culture and drinking is fun, and drinking is letting loose.
If only it was that. It's not, the truth is it's not empowering. We like this bad mom's culture, me time, culture, you know, screw the family, go out, have a good time, have our me time. And as women, we'd need that. We totally need that. We need a break. We need time out. We need our own friends and our own life.
But alcohol doesn't always bring us that. And it also, um, takes away our power. It can make us weak, confused, sick, addicted, um, and terrible things can happen when women are drinking, right? So, and we're not in control of ourselves and we don't know about our surroundings. And, um, typically women have things done to them when they drink too much.
And men are the people doing the things when they drink too much. So it's a very powerful film. It's like, what, 20 minutes long or something? Yeah. Yep. And it, it packs a story. I recommend it for everyone. Is there any way that anybody can view it at this point or they have to wait? Oh, oh, yeah. No, I uploaded it on YouTube.
Um, so it's free access to anybody. Um, and I usually, um, showcase the film and then give a talk after. Um, and that it's, it's. Great. Um, but the piece that's missing is the solution, right? She asks for help, but we wanna know the solution and with a small film, we have a small budget. Well that's why we need the two hour movie and hopefully coming soon you right.
Or at least time or whatever and you know, I'll be first in line with my popcorn waiting for that. Yeah. Kelly, thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for being out loud. Thank you for being transparent. It helps, it's rare that I meet somebody who can match my level of energy and enthusiasm and you are one of those rare birds that can match me, probably leap right over me.
So, you know, I'm a huge fan of yours. I adore you. Thank you for doing the talk on Good Morning America. Everywhere you go, it does make a difference and I appreciate you. Thank you so much. So good to be with you.
Jell
