Welcome Bonnie Violet to the Peripeteia podcast. I'm so excited to have you. Thank you for showing up to have this conversation with me. I really, really appreciate it. We are having this conversation on my seven year soberversary. So I feel like that, thank you for the applause. I feel like that's meaningful and special.
And for me this year, seven years, plus being 2025, the year of the snake. It's like shedding a skin. It feels like of transformation, a spiritual awakening, like a whole thing of like a final closure on maybe like the past seven years, shedding the skin and moving into something new. Some people say that like every seven years, our cells regenerate.
So like physically, I might not be the same person that I was seven years ago. And I just think that that's so freaking cool. And I thought that's so relatable to you because you have a recovery story. But you also have a story of being transgender. So identity and shedding skin and literally physically becoming someone new is also part of your story.
And that's what we're here to talk about today.
Awesome. Great. Yeah. And congrats on seven years. That's a really long time and I'm looking forward to our conversation today.
Me too. So can you share a little bit about your journey and what led you to embrace your identity as a trans woman?
Yeah. Um, it was such a long journey. Um, I grew up in a small town in Idaho of like 3000 people. 46 years later, because that's how old I am. Um, the town still has around 3000 people, not the same 3000 people, but you know,
I'm from a town of 3000 people in Wisconsin. So we have that in common as well.
Yeah. Yeah. So. Um, growing up there as a trans person, um, it was definitely not something I saw around me. Um, and so I never really, I think, got to see myself. Um, and a lot of my, growing up, there was a lot of, my dad was an addict, an alcoholic, there was a lot of trauma, and like, it was a very chaotic environment. and so I blocked out much of my childhood. I don't remember anything before the age of 12. Um,
your protection.
yeah, and, um, I didn't really know why. For whatever reason, it was just like at 12 years old, um, there was the death of a good friend of mine and my aunt in the same year. It was like kind of the first time I was old enough to experience death. And I don't know, for whatever reason, life kind of began for me, um, in my memories, at least at that time in my life. And then going through, you know, junior high and high school, you know, that sort of stuff. I, I was a kind of an overachiever. I was all about like, perfect attendance and good grades. And, you know, I was, I grew up in a trailer, um, in a small town in a house full, you know, we're, we're a poor family.
Mm hmm.
Mormon. And so that made us uncool too. We weren't Catholic that made us uncool too. So there were a lot of things that kind of like, you know, in little small towns, there's like these little social orders or whatever. And there were a lot of things that kind of took us further down the pole. Um, and so growing up kind of in that environment, uh, my value and my worth was something that I think I always really struggled with, with feeling like I wasn't good enough, or I wasn't worthy enough, or I had to do more in order to kind of be like everyone else, or to at least be at the same level, or potentially to move us up a level or two, if that makes sense.
It's,
Yeah. Who's us? Do you have siblings? Is it siblings or your mom?
yeah,
Tell us
like
about your family.
and Yeah, my mom and my dad and my younger brother who was two years younger than me.
Okay.
was pretty much like our main family. Growing up in small towns, you know, I had lots of cousins I grew up with and aunts and uncles and, you know, a lot of the family lived in the same small town.
So we all were very close and very tight. And so,
Okay. And were you all not cool because you weren't Catholic and, um, poor and all those, the social status things. Was that, does that go for your whole family or just your little group of four?
yeah, I mean, I feel like that was kind of the overall status of the family.
Okay.
least especially from my perception as a young kid, I just definitely saw that I was like this poor kid who was part of this poor family who,
Okay.
there was family history that kind of also placed us in this position in the compute community.
My dad was the drug dealer. You know, there were a lot of. There were a lot of things that kind of made me feel as if, we weren't quite as, uh, I don't know, like there was stuff I needed to do to be better. And so growing up in that environment as well, too, my parents were great, wonderful, loving people.
They did do the best that they could and wasn't great always, you know, they were never physically violent and we always had what we needed, um, emotionally, uh, not so much, um, uh, spiritually, of course. Um, you know, I think, uh, but physically, I guess we had what we needed. Um, but there was definitely things that like, they just didn't know, you know, when I started going to school, getting good grades, planning on going to college, um, maybe moving out of this. You know, moving out of the town to go to college and do those sorts of things. I worked really hard to get honors and awards to do that, but. My family couldn't really tell me what I needed to do with that, you know? And so it was like time to graduate. And it was like, okay, I got my letter. I got the grades, I got the honors, you know, I did the things, but then I never applied for school or never really did the things to get into school.
And so I ended up going to a tech school in Arizona, um, to begin studying architectural drafting. Cause that was something that I thought I wanted to do. Yeah.
they had their own struggles. So they did the best they could with you, but they were so overwhelmed with their own that you didn't get the kind of support. That you did deserve as a child and you need as a child and they weren't capable of that and it's not because they didn't love you.
It's because they didn't know how themselves, right?
Yeah. A lot of the times you didn't have the answers when I needed help. And for whatever reason I was always positioned in the family in which I, they never, they said, my mom says they never worried about me. They never worried that they didn't think I needed help in the ways that my brother did or my father did or the neighbor lady did or, you know what I mean?
Yeah,
I think
you were ambitious. It sounds like you were very ambitious, very responsible. Yeah, a perfectionist.
Yeah. And it was like this idea. And for me, it was confusing because I had questions and I didn't know, and I didn't feel confident. And, you know, I, I was learning and yet everyone around me was telling me, Oh, you're fine. You're good. You're great. And I was doing a lot of things to create that perception as well. And so I think that really led into a lot of, fed into a lot of, I think what made it difficult for me. Um, Into adulthood. Um, and later on through life is really kind of working through that idea of how to ask for help. Um, recognizing when I need help being able to ask the people around me for support and help.
You know, I think that's what recovery really did for me. Um, when I, you know, got away from using drugs and alcohol. I think that was what really, um, opened up. Um, I guess the, the opportunity for me to begin to, learn how to do that and, and, you know, get the results from that.
Totally. Well, yeah, it sounds like you were in a position and you took it of, um, being like a high achiever. And in the family, you were going to change your circumstances, despite what your family was doing. You were pretty determined to do that from a young age. Firstborn, a lot of that is like typical firstborn behavior, right?
Um, and being responsible. Maybe you took care of little brother a little bit. The parents were not available.
Yeah.
when did you find alcohol? I'm, I'm assuming it was alcohol and you kinda got mixed up with alcohol and drugs. You have a recovery story. Did that start early? Tell me a little more about that.
I mean, I grew up, you know, I grew up around it around with the family, you know, so sipping beers and like having a shot of whiskey or those sorts of things were commonplace as a kid. When
Mm
my dad got me drunk first when I was a toddler. I don't remember this, but my mom told me that we both came home drunk and I was
mm-hmm
in a good condition.
And then at 16 years old, drank and I drank. Uh, poorly. I ended up with alcohol poisoning and almost died that first night when I was 16 years old, and I really drank, um, and then I kind of just stayed away from it for a while, um,
Mm-hmm
high school and moved out to Arizona to go to school, and then when I was 19 years old, I got infected with HIV. And I found out right around the time I turned 20. And then that's when drugs, drugs came into my life. Um, because I'd been around drugs my whole life. Um, I had always felt like my dad had lived a difficult life. He had abusive parents and lots of, just lots of violence and different things. And so I always felt like he had a reason to use.
Mm-hmm
finally had one. I was scared to death of dying of AIDS. Um, I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know that I could live. You know, there were a lot of, um, that kind of came up in being somebody who was like an overachiever, who was doing all these great things, who was smart, who was, you know, good looking, young.
Mm-hmm
the time, you know, it was like, how did I get HIV? You know, and so it was really, um, it was a big blow to the ego. Um, and also to like, just the, the dreams and hopes and vision that I had had for myself and for my family. And so it was, and I felt like I had really let them down, um, and myself down.
And I think, and then also God at that point, God had always been a big part of my life. I said, you know, we weren't, we weren't Mormon, we weren't Catholic, but I did go to church, um, as a kid. Um, no one else in my family did. I always say it's the first queer thing I did. And, um, it was a safe place for me.
So I often didn't feel safe at home or comfortable at home or school. and so church was just a safe, soft place for me to land. And so I spent a lot of time in church, uh, you know, in my teens, in my teens, and then even into my early adulthood.
Bonnie Violet, you were a seeker. You were always a spiritual seeker.
Mm
And then you were diagnosed with HIV. And I want to go back and learn a little more about all of this, but you felt like you had done something wrong. It's how it felt shameful to you. It sounds like.
Yeah, there was a lot of shame around it in parts because, you know, I couldn't really talk to anyone about it. There was the aspect of, you know, having sex. I, you know, it was queer sex. Um, you know, uh, so it was, it was like a combination of, yes, I have HIV, but then it also at the time I was living as a man, I understood myself as a man.
So then I was a gay man, you know, and so for, and the getting HIV was like. The thing that pushed me kind of out of the closet and pushed me into a place of owning this part of myself that I don't know I was fully ready for, but it kind of made it to where I had to kind of move forward. And so I think that's also why I landed in being gay for so long and never fully. transitioned
Yeah.
40s because I just thought, Oh, I'm feminine. I'm, uh, carry myself this way. Like, you know, I was like, Oh, I can just be a gay guy. Cause gay guys are kind of feminine and you know, all that sort of stuff. And so it kind of felt like it was a safer place for me to be as a feminine boy, I guess, um, to be as a gay guy versus like a straight guy. Um, and so I, I think it was just a safer place for me to land and to start to build community.
So, and forgive me if I use the wrong words and correct me if I use the wrong words, but growing up, you felt like a feminine boy. Is that how it felt to you? Is that who you were like at 12?
yeah, so I didn't have the words for it. Um, I, you know, I, I was very soft and effeminate in my childhood. Um, I was constantly getting a big thing that, a big being of why I didn't feel safe at home is that I was constantly getting corrected as far as like where I was putting my hands, like my, if my hands were on my face or if I wasn't talking loud enough or how I sit or how I, like I was expressing myself in feminine ways.
I don't even know if my father that's what was happening, but he was constantly correcting or telling me I needed to not do that. And so
And man up a little bit, maybe even, yeah,
And
that message.
I didn't have the that perspective at that time of my life, but yeah, it was definitely like he was trying to raise me to be a man who could, you know, take care of himself and the family and you know that sort of stuff it like to be the kind of guy that he was, you know,
And you just felt like you were wrong because you were doing it wrong. You were putting your hand, you were getting corrected all the time. Yeah.
wrong and I didn't understand that aspect. And then I also, because of trauma, when I was a kid, I would cry a lot. And so my dad, if there was ever any potential, like if he raised his voice or if I was potentially there was a conflict around me, I would cry and I would cry hysterically and I couldn't do anything about it and it would just make the thing worse, you know, and then it would just build and build and. I just thought I was broken or something. Like I had no understanding of what was happening to me or why it was the way it was. And I hadn't remembered the trauma, nor did anyone tell me in my family that it had happened. And
Right.
I didn't learn that until like my mid twenties. And then
Yeah.
that's why that is there. Versus like I just thought I was flawed in some way like I really didn't understand why I was the way I was Yeah,
hmm. Did you, and then you had a conversation with yourself at some point, it sounds like where you made a decision that I'm going to be a gay man, or I guess this is where I fit. When was that? Tell me about that. That at that point, that was your understanding of yourself.
I was right. It was in when I was 20 just before I was diagnosed with hiv I'd kind of decided for myself. Okay. I'm a gay man. I dropped out of bible school. I was going to university to be a pastor at that time. Um, and I dropped out of that. And then I was like, okay, my last girlfriend got mean because I wouldn't have sex with her.
And so it was like, uh, she was hurt and I didn't want to hurt her because I cared about her. And I was like, you need to figure out your, you need to figure out your stuff. And so I was
Okay.
be gay. And so I got a job at a gay bar to learn how to be gay.
Oh my gosh, this relationship taught you. So up until that point, you had been dating women or having relationships with women, women, you as a man feeling something about that, right? Like,
feel, yeah, like I wasn't really drawn to them sexually and I, like we never got that far and part of me just thought that's because I was spiritual and Jesus and waiting till marriage kind of stuff. But I think there was also a part of me that just was like, this isn't quite. you know,
yeah.
but I didn't know, I didn't know why or how and so then I was like, okay, I must be gay. I got a job at a gay bar to learn how to be gay because I'd never been around gay people. I didn't know, I didn't know what it meant. I just knew that it felt, I felt drawn toward men sexually. I felt attracted to them. And I just was like, And that felt natural in the beginning. It was a natural instinct in the beginning.
I thought it was like a demonic possession, but you know, I was
Oh,
come to understand that it was just my nature. It was just, was just what was created in me for whatever reason. Um, and the sooner I could begin to embrace that and be okay with that, the better, you know, I could be in life too.
that sounds like a big turning point to decide you're a gay man and then learn how to be gay. I mean, that's funny. To learn how. So did you learn? Teach me. Okay.
I learned you don't really learn,
Okay.
I was diagnosed with HIV like a couple months after I came out. And so that also changed my experience of just being a gay man at that
It was so fast that that happened, right?
I'm poisonous. I'm toxic. So the idea of me being in relation with anyone.
Friendship,
Um,
especially lovers or, or romantic, like, that was like off the table because I was this diseased, poisonous, toxic person. Um, at
just when you decide to like, claim yourself as a gay man, just when you start to feel what feels natural and you go with it so quickly, that happened and then more of there's something wrong with me and now I'm contagious. I can't be around anybody. More isolation for you when I'm guessing you already felt so alone.
yeah, I felt very alone in a lot of ways because now as part of these communities that I, I didn't know anything about I remember I was so young I remember going to the HIV clinic there for the first time to really because I knew nothing about it and I remember going there and like, It was a clinic full of people who all had HIV and we all were young.
There were a lot of young people and they had like, because this was 1999. So this was like, it was the 90s. It was a while ago, but it was still kind of like growing up in Idaho. I only, the only thing I knew about AIDS was like from the 80s and like the movie Philadelphia and
The movie, I was going to say, yeah.
I remember going to the going to this clinic and I was always petrified I would wear the same outfit.
I wore a pair of bib overalls that helped me feel safe I think and almost like a kid I guess. And then I threw like this yellow backpack on that I called my backpack of death. every time I went to the doctor, they would give me all this crap to read and learn and I would just throw them in that bag and then go home and throw it in the closet and pick it back up and go again and. one of these times this nurse was trying to, I think, comfort me and she's like, isn't it so great that everyone here is just like you? As in like, everyone here in this clinic has HIV like you. And I'm like, no, that guy can't see. That guy is in a wheelchair. That person is You know, I'm just like, no, like I'm seeing my life in front of me in the different stages, you know what I mean?
And I was always more afraid of, I was never afraid of dying. I was afraid of doing whatever, doing what it was that I wanted to do before I died. So I was more afraid of that, not knowing what it was I wanted to do. And then the other aspect, I was also more concerned about having some sort of, um, dis disability, I guess. before my death. So having to live blind or having to live in a wheelchair or having to, like, for me, I would have just rather died. Um, I couldn't understand how I could live in a different form, I guess. Um, yeah, it was, it was a very confusing, very scary. Um, time for me and drugs really helped soften the blow of life.
Um, I think drugs and alcohol were a gift, um, at that time of my life. And I think it really gave me life and it afforded me life in a way that I was not able to do it on my own. I don't know that I would have ended my own life, but, um, I don't think I would have began living. And to me, living is more than just breathing.
Like it's actually being excited about. Life and and being connected and like having purpose and drugs and alcohol began to do that for me because it put me in circles with other queer people and queer people who, who owned and loved who they were. And didn't have shame and they, some of you even believed in God and stuff, you know what I mean?
And, and so like I began to learn that I could exist, um, in, in the way that I truly was. Um, because I really felt like I was somehow not good enough for God. I was somehow soulless or evil or, you know, is this that I was going to die, let down my family, you know, there's just a lot of really negative things. And drugs kind of took that out of my mind enough to, to kind of like live.
Yeah, so interesting, but so interesting that you feel like you have limited time now because of this diagnosis. So you kind of want to like, hurry up and get in everything you've ever wanted to do.
Mm hmm.
also, you're going to drugs and alcohol because you can't stand what's happening to you and you want to, and you're looking for places to connect and you don't know how and you're.
Lost and confused and scared, right? So also the, if you had limited time, you're using it with drugs and alcohol, kind of jumping ship on yourself.
Yeah, in some ways, you know, I, I'd always been able to rely on God and had a spiritual way of life. And then I would no longer had access to that. And I didn't know how to exist in drugs and alcohol and kind of became, you know, I think, I don't know if
Yeah.
them spirits, but, you
Yeah.
became my substitute for,
thought you had the devil in you in the form of HIV.
Yes, and they allowed me to feel joy and to feel pride and to feel, you know, all the sorts of things that I once felt with God and felt in spirituality, but somehow felt like I didn't have access to anymore.
And it taught me that I could still, I mean, I often say that I think that was the time that I actually fell into grace. You know, to me, grace is this idea that I don't have to do anything to earn value or worth, that I have the same value and worth that we all have, that we're equal and we're balanced in that way.
There's nothing I can do to change that, to remove it or build more. Even though much of my life I was always trying to prove my worth or do more for my worth and getting HIV just exacerbated that even more. And so, and then I was like going to church every Sunday and Wednesday and reading the Bible and praying and doing this and doing that in order to receive grace, which is contrary to what grace is all about.
And so when I actually started to stop doing those things, cause I didn't, I was told I couldn't. Because I was queer, then, then grace, I was actually able to experience grace and what it was like to, to still have value and still have worth without having to do all the things in order to be worthy.
That's such a beautiful explanation of grace. And I need that today. I think we all do. Right. Um, and many of my listeners I know are perfectionists and high achievers and ambitious. And we think we have to do all these things to earn our worth and we don't.
No.
so we are worthy as we are in whatever shape, form productivity.
Know that we offer whatever that looks like. So that's a really beautiful lesson. So drugs and alcohol, I'm guessing were helpful to you until they weren't . Tell us about the turning point with that.
Yeah, at 27 years ago, I guess I was 29 years old at 29 years old. I was living in back in Boise. I was living in Boise, Idaho. I was running an HIV AIDS organization that I created when I was 24. I had just left my husband. Um, I had, it was Mother's Day, and I just, for whatever reason, that morning I woke up, I was hungover, which was not new. I had slept with someone who was not my partner, who was not my monogamous partner, who also worked for me, who, you know, like, there was just my morals and values I was failing at. And for whatever reason, that day I was just like, I can't do this anymore. And it wasn't a new feeling. It, you know, it's, I'd found myself there before, you know, and it was just like, I really don't know to do about this and I'm not okay. Because the things I care most about, I was failing at. I was a liar in my relationship. I was, you know, there were just things that, In my core values, I could, I was falling short and I didn't know how to do anything different. And so someone told me they thought I had a drinking problem and I was like, yes, that's it. That's why I do these horrible things is because, um, and it's like, that was helpful in the beginning. Cause it took me a while to really accept that I was an alcoholic or a drug addict, um, that I could really be powerless. over the substances. Um, but I definitely thought life was unmanageable and I didn't know how to get different results.
And really helped me to begin to do different things, which then did get me to begin to have different results.
Mm-hmm
many of which I didn't enjoy, were so important for me being able to like move forward. living and it kind of jumps through a little bit further, but I do believe that I've actually like I had to transition in order to like remain sober and in order to continue to be honest and live, live life in a way in which want to still exist, you know,
Mm-hmm
so I see my transness and me living into it as a spiritual awakening
Mm-hmm
that it's me just. Yeah, awakening to who, I am more and being willing to, to express more of who I am. Whether I've always been, I don't know. I can look throughout my life and see that there's evidence that I've always been a trans person. Um, but it doesn't necessarily matter because I do believe that like, awakened to the idea that I am a trans person, and like, in that, I don't know, it's just like, I can't, it's hard to really explain, because I didn't see it until I saw it. and
Mm-hmm
when COVID happened, and I was isolated in San Francisco, and away from all my family, and, you know, and just isolated, you know, it got me thinking, like, what a, What if I die? What if they die? What if, you know, and I was, I was afraid that I would lose them if I came out as trans, like I was realizing I was trans and then I was like, yeah, but can I, can I live as a trans?
Like, if I do this, probably lose my family. I'll lose love. I'll lose sex. I'll lose, position in community, I'll lose like everything. And, you know, and it was like, it, it, it was it to not transition at that point was worse than any of that
Mm-hmm.
because once I transitioned that all came true, everything changed.
And I lost almost every relationship and position and. Everything, just everything did change drastically, um, but I began to feel, um, and live and reside in my body in a way that I never had, um, or high. Um, so for me, it was just me beginning to be able to embody more of who I am, um, because even though I was, you know, 10 plus years sober. And had, had done a lot of work. I still was very dissociated and very much not living in my body. most of the time I was a very heady person and like, but to actually embody my body, like until I started doing drag and I had opportunities to put on clothing that was opposite and like, I just never wanted to get out of it.
And the more that I did it, the more I, I, I realized that this was just, I want to be this way all the time. Like this is, this feels good to be this way all the time. I want to be called she all the time because it hits this spot in me that just, feel seen, um, you know, I feel seen when somebody calls me Bonnie Violet or call, or uses she pronouns.
Like, you know, my parents don't do that. of my
Mm-hmm
friends don't do that from the past, you know? And so I don't feel like they see me. Um, and it makes it very difficult to, I think, continue to be in relationship with. A lot of the people in the past.
Wow. You risked everything and Bonnie Violet. I don't know if anybody can see, but your face lights up of joy and empowerment when you talk about being in drag or being Bonnie Violet. And I think that's really interesting because I think the question everybody has is, did you always know, or were you always like this, or were you born a girl or something like that?
And what you're telling us is I didn't know until I know. New and looking back. This is what's right for me in this moment. This is who I am right now. So it kind of doesn't matter. You were surviving as best you could in the environments that you were in, but now that you know, you can't unknow. Now that you know how good it feels to be who you are and to be in your body.
You can't undo that, even though it means risking a lot.
it's more risky to not though. It's
Tell me more.
in my life that it's more risky to not transition and not, you know, embody myself, you know what I mean? Like, was definitely, it just got to the point where there was no was no other choice, um, to do that, you know, and life is that way sometimes where there, yes, we always have choice and we always have options, but there really isn't a choice. When it, when it came down to it,
Yeah, you had to. Yeah. So you were so brave. You went from, um, deciding to be a gay man and then very quickly getting diagnosed with HIV and then feeling terrified of that to then becoming a married gay man and a HIV advocate in Boise, Idaho, which is, that's a pretty brave thing to do, I think,
Yeah,
right? And a leader.
And then you were brave enough to say, I was also using drugs and alcohol and I cheated on my husband and with somebody I work like I did all these things that, um, it's really honest of you to share that, um, most of us keep all of that private, right? But you're willing to say that out loud. I did all these things and then it brought you into recovery.
Yeah, I
And then
So I was gonna say I do believe we are only as sick as our secrets and I can't afford to not that everybody needs to know all my business,
right
afford to not be honest about who I, who I've been and what I've done.
owning that banishes some of the shame about that because you have self forgiveness and you can move on.
Yeah, it's useful to me and it's useful to many of the people around me to know that it. That, you know, that's part of my past, too, and that, you can live differently.
I love that. And I always say changed behavior is the best apology. So what that did for you was bring you to change behavior. You got into recovery, right? And so it sounds like you went through a 12 step program. Is that accurate?
Mm
You found a community. Mm hmm.
I mean, I feel like a lot of my addiction sprung from a spiritual malady, um, through the lack of being able to have access to God or a higher power. And as a queer person, I didn't think I had, I was eligible. And so 12 step was a spiritual solution to drugs and alcohol. And I met queer people and other people who weren't supposed to be eligible for God, talked about God and talked about a higher power and, they were living lives that. I didn't think were possible for people like me. And so I was like, I want that. So I think one of the things that drew me most about step or even getting into recovery was this idea of having a different God and a different understanding of God, um, in my life again, because I think that's really what I, was most, uh, sad, and distraught about not in my life.
Yeah, and as I mentioned, you were a spiritual seeker from a young age and going to church even without your family, trying to find, um, that sort of faith in something bigger than you and a community of people who believed, who also believed that was always important to you.
Agreed.
When you say you saw people living a life that you didn't think was available to you because now you have got your, now you went from, I guess, I'm a gay man to I'm a queer person, right?
You kind of made that shift. What did you think your life was at that time? Like, what did they have that you didn't, or what did they have that you didn't think you could have?
I think one of the biggest things was having, having God and spirituality and purpose.
Okay.
In their life in that aspect, but also, of course, they had like jobs and they had relationships that they were honest in and they were, you know, doing things in community and which, which were all things that I was doing, but I was driven by. This need to validate my existence and to make up for like me being a failure, like that was a lot of my motivation
Mm-hmm
seeking validation, seeking affirmation, seeking what I needed for me to be okay. Instead of like just being of service, which I feel like nowadays I can understand the sacred economy of like being of service and that I can be of service in a way to get out of self. But not, but for also the motive of helping somebody else. You know, I don't, there's just a, I really feel like recovery just creates, uh, more of an awareness of what is true and what is already there. So I always wanted to be a good person and I wanted to be of service to my community. And I got to always believe that I was meant to be, uh, uh, uh, an amazing leader for God and saving people for Jesus.
And like that part of me was all still in me. Um, but my motivations and the motives that the emotions or the things that were pulling that were stronger that were taking over were a little more maladaptive.
Mm
and so yes I wanted to be of service and yes I wanted to do these things but my main role was I wanted to feel okay about who I was.
And I needed outside validation to do that.
mm-hmm
then that was the cool thing is like, I, it started out seeking validation and then I got it and then I don't know. It's like, I don't need it anymore. And those, in those ways that I once did, it was, was a beautiful maladaptive kind of response. to life or dying.
Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm
run, which I think is that's where God is or spirit, the whatever stuff is that I don't understand that through that process, I received healing and an openness to, to, to where I am and how I am today, which is a lot
Mm-hmm
I originally thought was my spiritual meaning. But it has nothing to do with Jesus or saving people or, you know, any of that crap that, um, gave me so much, uh, I don't know what the word is, what it gave me.
But, um, I, I can see that it's all still the same. It just looks a little different because me starting an HIV AIDS organization and working with young people and, and doing this, that, or the other is almost a lot like going out into the world and saving people for Jesus. Actually, I was just helping people, you know, and helping myself and you know what I mean?
Like, I can look back and see that like, uh, yeah, like maybe I thought I was going to be in churches being of service, but no, I'm at, I'm at an AIDS organization or I'm at a needle exchange program, or I'm at a drug and alcohol research program, or you know what I mean? Like those are how I show up. Um, like my spirituality is what calls me to do that
Mm-hmm
Um,
Yeah.
feel like
I, I hear you. Yeah. It's another thing we have in common, and it's interesting because when I, there's a book, what color is Your Parachute? Um, and it's like, tells you what job would be right for you. Whenever I do a a, a te a career test or something. Clergy always comes up for me. And I'm always like, Oh, that makes perfect sense because I love an audience, love attention.
I want to stand and do a sermon. And I must, I have a degree in social work. So I also am a helper. I want to be helpful, of course, you know? So I'm like, Oh God, that's right. But even as a sober coach, like I do my workshops, I've got my group, we've got our weekly meetings that I lead. It's, it's the same. And you went to school to be a pastor.
You were going, you were getting educated. For that. Right. Tell me more. Okay.
very briefly. I just
Okay.
I just kind of like started it and then realized I was queer, got met, you know, like there were just some things that happened that kind of took me away from that. Now I do, like I am ordained through, Like the Universal Life Church, which I know sounds like whatever, but through that I've done lots of weddings and memorials, and then I've been through chaplaincy, chaplaincy training
Mm-hmm
Church in Chicago. And then I adapted that into what I call a queer chaplain, which is a chaplain of another sort in which I feel called to be with people around death and dying, uh, to self. Um, versus the body it's actually more of like around an identity shift or a coming to understand yourself in a way That no longer allows the god or the spirituality that you once knew or understood to be true And you have to come to believe something different and something new kind of helping people Have some sort of spirituality through that process And it's really just about bringing an awareness to the spirituality already at play
Yeah.
So that they can good about it as they go through it, but they also can tap into that as they're going through the transformation.
Yeah. Let's talk about this. I'm excited to talk about this and I think you are too. Um, because I feel just. Um, like I talked about in the beginning, let's say seven years of sobriety and the year of the snake shedding skin. And I feel like a Phoenix who rises from the ashes just being sober. I mean, I had to, I had to burn it to the ground, right?
I was terrified I was going to lose my marriage, my family, my friends, my social life, my job. And a lot of those things came true. Like you said about your choices, like. I have to do this even though it risks everything that I know and that I think I know in love. I still have to do it. Same for me. I had to get sober and a lot of my fears came true.
I did lose people and things and I'm in a totally different job and thank God I still have my marriage. I'll credit that to him more than me. Let's say his loyalty and sticking by me and being my cheerleader. But I get that identity shift. It's really hard. I was also known as life of the party and now I'm sober Sally who's also still the life of the party by the way.
Um, which of course you know, but this is in a really big way. So then you went from gay man to queer and now you're like playing with drag and it starts to feel like home to you. So tell me about this shift of, I'm actually a woman and my name is Bonnie Violet. Tell me more
um, yeah, I like, I don't, it's, it's been a journey, because even before, when I was living as a, As a understanding of a queer man, um, I would started using she, her pronouns professionally way before I transitioned or even saw myself as a trans person. Oftentimes trans people, very common for us to think we're not trans enough. Um, and because we're not trans enough, as in like, I never thought I was a woman trapped in a man's body. I never wanted to like, remove parts of my body necessarily, partially because I wasn't inside my body, so I didn't know what I wanted my body to be, which is a whole nother like, part of the journey.
But
Mm hmm.
Um, so because I didn't fit that narrative, I, I didn't feel like I was trans. Um, all my friends used to call me she, and I, I just loved it. And I was like, Ooh, I like that. Like it was a term of endearment. And I didn't for a long time, ask people to use she pronouns because I thought it took away from like. other people who use she like somehow it was took away from a cisgender woman she or a trans woman she or whatever and like i wasn't she enough and then i was like it makes me feel good why wouldn't i do it and what does my she have to do with anyone else's right
Mm hmm.
and so i just kind of like stuck with that for a long time and people who knew me loved me use she pronouns for me um And so, so it's been kind of a journey of kind of getting there. Um, I, I think a big shift for me was, um, I was, I'm being in recovery. I was living in San Francisco at the time and a drag queen friend of mine, um, ended up taking their own life. Um, they were dealing with drugs and addiction and they're still in Idaho. Um, and they, they passed, they died from it.
I'm sorry.
I was like, I was just like, I'd always talked about doing drag or wanted to do drag.
I'd actually even tried when I was younger, but I was like, it was confusing to me because I was like, it was trans, it was internalized transphobia. I didn't understand it at the time, but it was very confusing to me. So I couldn't do it. And so when he died, I was like, I just, like, what am I waiting for? And so, like, in San Francisco, they have a show once a month that's sober people doing a drag show to raise money for recovery, people in recovery. And so I called my friend up and was like, hey, can you put me on the stage? And they're like, yeah. And so like 10 days later, I was on a stage doing Kesha's new song, Praying,
Yes, you were.
you know,
Yeah.
And then through that process, it was very scary and very vulnerable.
And I had a really difficult time with it because I felt like I was really like, I had to do very thoughtful and gender bending. And like, I was a bearded queen initially. I was like super hair. It's probably hard to imagine now, but like, I was just like this different person, I was owning it. And part of that for me was I was going through the transition of really just owning more of who I was and I was doing it on stage. And it was an extremely vulnerable and scary situation because it wasn't just me putting on an outfit or putting on a costume and becoming somebody else. It was actually me revealing more of me.
You were being vulnerable because that was the authentic self. It wasn't a show.
through that process, you know, most drag artists by the end of the night, they're like, I can't wait to get out of this stuff.
Like, get me out of here. And I was just like, can we go out? Can we like, you
Shave my beard.
I know I want to go to sleep like this, you know, wake up
Oh.
and so at first I didn't know if it was because, know, like a drag queen, you, there's a certain amount of like celebrity, if you will, that happens with just being in public or doing this or that.
It's like, you're a drag queen, you know? And so a lot of attention that comes from that. And so at first I wasn't sure, like, are you enjoying this because of the attention or are you? And it was more than that because it wasn't even about. when I was with people, it was more about when I was with myself. Um, and so through that process, I just, I, I got more and more to where I started wearing skirts to work and started like just, and I got to where if I didn't wear a skirt, I thought I was like, Being dishonest with myself or like, I wasn't living to my, you know, it was, it was interesting 'cause it was just such a journey.
And at first I was just a guy in a skirt, uh,
hmm. Mm
or, you know, and then eventually it was like, no, I think it's more than that. And so I see myself as a trans, I usually say a trans person, more trans feminine. I, I say I'm trans, femme, gender queer. And for me it's like I'm a trans woman. I'm trans-feminine, but I don't see women. In a specific way or the thought to be traditional way and so I'm more of like a queer woman,
hmm.
hard. It may be hard to understand or explain but I think part of growing up in the way that I grew up seeing a man and a woman and what a man did and what a woman did. There's a part of me that is like, Probably like a trans woman. So I have to do that journey of going to be a woman, but also my understanding of what it means to be a woman is queer. And so like, it can be short haired. It can be like, whatever, you know? And so I think, I think that's, I'm on that journey of to where I fit. And then the hard part is living in this place like Idaho, where sometimes I want to look like a woman because it's safer. And like, if I can't quite look like. you know what I mean? Like, a lot of people clock me, which is they see that I'm trans, um, but like, sometimes I wonder if I want to look more like a woman, a cisgendered woman, so that I don't have, so I don't get problems going to the bathroom, or just
Mm
or so that I could just exist without my transness being the first thing that people see, or the first thing that, uh, informs people on how to engage with me. Um, but, You know, I don't know. So it's, it's a journey. I've only, uh, April will be four years starting my medical transition. So it's still all really new. Um, and I'm still learning and coming to discover more of who I am. And, you know, a lot of, because I've had that trauma and that stuff, I don't visualize, like, I don't know. How I want myself to look or you know what I mean, but I'm excited to see like I intuitively started hormones because I felt like there was some sort of deficiency like vitamin lacking in my body and there was parts of my body that just needed some nutrients so that it could live finally, you know, and so I started hormones.
Not even knowing if I wanted breasts or I wanted curves or any of these sorts of things. Um, but intuitively, I just felt like it's what I needed. And then as my body started changing, I was like, Oh yes, I like this. I want more of this. You know what I mean? And so it's, it's been kind of a, you know, test and try it out.
And in Idaho, I've lost access to my healthcare back in July. So it's been really interesting to kind of not have access to medicine and then having to kind of almost de transition. start that process of losing curves or losing shape that was coming and trying to, to deal with that and through that process, I've come to really understand that like, yeah, I really am, like, if I ever wondered if I was trans, like, I definitely am because I'm much more happier and content and feel more embodied, um,
hmm.
when I'm on that journey of, Transcribed what we would call a transition, you know?
Yeah, it sounds like a human journey to me. I think a lot of people, I'm sure, I mean, we'll talk about this too, I'm sure there's a stigma and you feel that wherever you go and there's a lot of people that don't understand or haven't been in your shoes or your heels, whichever,
Yeah.
we're all trying to figure out who we are.
And Why is gender so important leads the question like this is a man's job and this is a woman's job or this is how women are and this is how men are some of that is not true. This is how people are, and each person I see in all sorts of relationships can be who they, whoever they are right, but we've.
I was gonna say, and yet, that's a very powerful thing in our society. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, it plays a huge role, even if it's just some made up shit. Like, like, as
Yeah,
man and woman and what it means to be a man or a woman, but
right.
a lot of things, jobs and roles and
Right. All of it. Well, I'm going back to free to be you, me, you and me in the seventies, our films to print school, but Billy wants a doll. And like that, that was so wrong that a boy would play with a doll, but wouldn't we want to raise fathers who love their children and hold a baby? There's nothing wrong with that.
There's, there's everything right with that, but we determined something was wrong with that, you know? So, I mean, that's really deep. Simplifying it, but it, those messages, those unconscious messages, um, and I can't help but mention the patriarchy over and over again of who's in power and what, what it means to be, what it means.
But I, I feel like we're all trying to figure out our identity and who we are embodying ourself. And you're learning, you're trying to get to a place where your insides and your outsides match. Right.
Well, I think, I mean, I think it's just a journey that we're on. You kind of talked about It's like, I don't believe that I was created and my creator is done with me. You know, I feel like I'm continually being created, and the cool thing about my understanding is I'm a co creator with my creator.
Mm hmm.
in alignment with how we see me in the world today, you know, and me living into my transness is part of my calling, and part of what God, or part of what I believe Creator, is
Mm hmm.
to be. You know, I went from being a man, white man, To being a trans woman, trans white woman, but like, there is a huge, uh, privilege shift that happens, and there's, it's a journey, it's like, there's stuff that you learn when you're able to live in one side to the other, and that there's so much wisdom, and there's so much, like, I think that's why trans people, and two spirit people, and people who've lived in this queer space in between of things, have been like, the, the healers, and the, The wise people in the whatever in, in tribes and communities, because I think we're given a perspective allows us to connect and not be a threat um, either side.
Um, and so, and you can even see it just with like queer men. And in a lot of the shows you can see a gay man, and he gets along with the girls and the guys still invite him into the club. And you know, you know what I mean? And I think,
Mm hmm.
know, I, I, I truly believe that a big part of my spiritual Like, I believe that I'm created to be trans in this moment in time, and I'm trans in this moment in time because those are the words for who I am, but I'm just part of the evolution of all of us into being, I don't know,
Yeah, you've come a long way, baby, because you at first you wanted to deny these things or they ignore these things or try not to be these things and you're accepting who you are. You're fully accepting who you are and going with it and feeling empowered. I think that's really beautiful. What changes would you like to see in how society understands or supports transgender people?
Um,
um,
You mentioned the media, like,
yeah, I think, I think, I would like to say that I would love for more trans and non binary people to experience love and acceptance and affirmation from the people around them. And I would love for trans and non binary people to be able to live a life in which their trans and non binariness is, is not. Um, the main identifier or the, um, like that, that it doesn't have to be a thing necessarily. Not, not to erase it, not in a way of like being colorblind. Like it's important for us to see that people are black and brown and to understand that they're having a different relationship because of that. and I think and non binary people need to be seen, but we also need to also just be other human beings, um, as well.
And so I think, I don't know. That's what I want for trans people. And that's a lot of the work that I do now. I started an organization called Trans Joy Boise. And it's really about us making and creating space for us to have joy as trans people in public for trans, for the sake of trans people. Not for the gays. of the rest of the world. know what I mean? And, uh, that can be hard to do, but I'm really trying to focus on, on that aspect. I think for trans people to experience joy, not as an escape from our struggle, but actually as a part of our struggle and a part of our. Um, I don't know, you can look and see any marginalized group over decades and you can see that they were, they were spiritual, they were creative, they were dancers and singers and like some like just beautiful. much beauty has come out of that. And, you know, I think that's something that I'm really trying to help my community really own and lean into more, especially in these times when things are getting, you know, I mean, many of us are afraid that, you know, pretty soon we're going to taken and put in a camp or a jail or, you know, and that, that really doesn't feel like that's a crazy thought. so that it's been a really I think we live in a really interesting time as a trans person, and sometimes I'm like, okay, why, why did we decide, like, why, why are we doing this? Um, but I know it's, I know it's how I'm meant to be. Um, and there, there's a bigger purpose. There's purpose for me, but there's a bigger purpose, I think,
yeah,
in the way that I am. Um, as a trans person, but also beyond that.
you, it was, you, I understood so well. It was so interesting when you said you wanted to look like a woman because that would be safer for you. And I felt like really coming from a white man, like if we were in the woods and there was a bear or a man, I think a lot of us women would choose the bear would be safer, right?
So like, that was a really interesting thing to say.
right. Well, and it, I think it also speaks to, like, that trans, being a trans woman is even more vulnerable
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
it's, it's not a comparison, it's, there's just a difference, because
But for you, then if you are a woman, then the focus would be off trans.
yes, well, and it's like, I know what it's, I know what it's like for, to deal with the fact that a guy might think I'm attractive, and then decide to hit on me, or da da da da, or, I call me or like, you know, I have to think about, am I wearing this because I want to wear it? Or if I wear this to this place, am I gonna, or if I'm walking at night by myself, you know,
Yeah.
things.
Because if I'm perceived as a woman, then I get the crap that women get from men, but then people think I'm a woman. And then they think, oh, I'm a man. And then they want to treat me like a man. So they want to punch me or beat me or harm me.
Yeah.
they can, because they think I'm a man.
Yeah.
is a whole nother, you know,
Yeah.
think that's like the other area of vulnerability that, that, um, I've come to. It's, it's so weird how I can be more confident and feel good about who I am. And I've never been more scared of the world and more scared to go places and do things in my entire life. And yet I've never felt more in alignment with who I am in my mind, body, and spirit. It's such a mindfuck, if I
Totally. Well, if you can, and that's part of my mission for this podcast is to make the whole world a safer place for you, wherever you land, because.
of them,
Yeah, for all of us and safe and celebratory. People can celebrate who they are, whatever they are, and there's a lot of joy and empowerment. Um, are there any like role models or books or movies that have helped or inspired you along the way?
you know, I think, you know, I think it's, I think the thing that's been important for me was I didn't grow around seeing, I didn't grow in environments in which I could see myself. And so it's been really important for me to see parts of me or more of me by, by seeing and experiencing other people. And so, you know, there were trans women who saw me before.
I Saw Me, Mama Carol was one of those. There was like lots of trans women who saw me before I Saw Me. Movies like Pose, um, really started to tell a little bit of a narrative of what it meant to grow up as trans in the 80s and 90s and, and even into the nows. Um, uh, so Pose is something, Janet Mock is a really great author.
Um, I've read some of her books and I really get a lot from listening to her. Um, but really I think the biggest thing is just Trans and non binary people that are existing, period, whether it's online or store or, you know, at whatever, you know, I'm hosting a support group here in about an hour and I'm so excited to meet and see other folks like myself, you know, there's just so much
Yeah,
and so much strength that comes from that.
well, you living confidently as who you are, you're the person that you needed back then, right?
So totally, I mean, yeah, right, isn't that a big part of what we do is we, I mean, and I've always tried to be the person that I needed,
Mm hmm.
and I think I can be a little bit more intentional and what that looks like is, It's just so different as we all grow up,
Right.
and to see things differently.
Mm hmm. What are some of the self care practices that you that have helped you navigate the difficult times?
I think for me is really being able to form a chosen family. I don't have relationship with the mother and father in the way that I would like, or even my brothers or siblings, or even my nieces and nephews. And so like I have chosen family in which I'm the auntie to a trans man and, and, and, and non binary persons, like. Child, I am auntie, you know, and so I get to know, I get to experience what it's like to be an aunt with them, or I have people in my life that I can go to that are like mothers or fathers or parents, um, that's been really, I think, powerful for me to be able to create a chosen family and, and be in relation with people intentionally in that way. Um, I, I light Palo Santo. I, I, um, and I get negative shit. I don't know if it does anything, but sometimes I like to do it. I light candles. I don't have a really strong sense or or God or religion, but I've with it all a little bit and just, you know, like, yeah, I love talking with people about their spirituality and their experience because that helps widen expand my understanding because I say that God often fails me, and it's not God that fails me but it's my understanding or my experience with it. Um,
hmm.
at some point in time. I come to learn that something's not quite what I believed or that what I know is not enough for
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm
in those ways really helps me stay grounded. I have people in my life that look out for me and I look for them.
I still go to recovery meetings on a regular basis. I preach and Churches as a drag queen and I talk with people. And so I think it's just that it's a little bit of everything, like my whole life, um, it, it, whole life is a life of recovery. And so every aspect in it is a part of me recovering, but also just living more fully and wholeheartedly and more humbly. Um, and in like myself, this is
hmm. That's a beautiful definition of recovery in itself, living more fully into you. How do you handle negative comments or misconceptions about your identity?
Um, I've, I think part of that is who it comes from. like I get, I'm on social, so like, you know, I'm a public facing person, so I get it on social media and stuff constantly, all the time. how do I deal with the negative? For the most part, I just kind of brush it off. Um, there are times when it's difficult so I stay away from it if I need to. Um, I usually try to talk with other people who might have a similar experience so that I don't feel isolated in what I'm going through and then I can like take the power away from it. Um, and so I think that's been some of the biggest things of how I deal with negative. feelings or experiences around my transness or even recovery or just who I am, those sorts of things that I think we all do, um, can kind of help me and it's not really any one of those things.
It's probably like a combination of those things.
Yeah, and always think connected to your community and your chosen family sounds like that sense of belonging can really undo what any stranger might think or say, right? Yeah. Mm hmm.
always wanting to be right and good and like is actually allowing myself. To be in that negativity, to allow myself to be mad, to allow myself to be, like, not cute in response to people, and just give myself some grace. Um, that's okay, and that's reasonable, and in some ways it's probably more honest. Uh, than, than when I wasn't and when I don't, so I think that's been probably one of the better things that I can do is to just like, be like, I don't like that person, or I don't like it, or I don't, as you know, or mad, those are all words that never came out of my mouth, or I allowed myself to express, or even for myself, um, and so I think being able to just be like, honest with myself with that stuff has been really A lot more helpful in letting that negative stuff or that stuff that people might say about me. It doesn't bother me that much because I know, I know the truth.
Mm hmm. I love that. How can allies best support. Trans people in their personal lives and in advocacy,
Yeah, I mean, I think the big thing is, is just to, to be in relationship with us and to listen to us and, and to learn from us. Watch movies, listen to books. Don't let your trans person your life be the only. like, experience or exposure to transness. Um, please, like, please get involved politically. Like, I've never been a politics person, but it's impacting us in such, like, horrible ways that it's, it's just, like, vote, vote in ways that protect us.
Like, um, whether it's at the school board or it's, or it's, like, at the city level or, like, um, in the bathroom. Like, don't just be A bystander, like, um, and I don't know, it's like, sometimes I know, like, oftentimes people will be like, well, I'll mess with anyone who wants to, it's like, well, I don't want to go through that, you know, like, I don't want to go through having to deal with someone, I don't know, it's just ask, I don't know, it's hard to say, but I would just say, just be in relation, be an honest relationship with us.
that makes a lot of sense.
on purpose and often.
Amazing. Is there anything else you want to share, Bonnie Violet?
Is there anything else I want to share? I don't know. I appreciate getting an opportunity to talk to you today. I wasn't so sure and there's a lot about my life. You know, we didn't even go into, you know what I mean? Like it's like snapshots of things. And so, but it's been helpful for me to, because I think we speak and we say what we need to say. And we're given opportunities to do that. And so I appreciate getting an opportunity to, um, I guess, speak my narrative a little bit differently today. Um, because I think that helps me, um, tell myself a better story about who I am and how I am in the world. I
I've loved getting to know you, Bonnie Violet. Thank you for this opportunity. I've really learned a lot by hearing your story. So I think it's a gift. I think it's to share any of our truths with somebody. Um, a stranger and then to make it public, I think is brave. So I'm proud of you. I'm proud of me and both of us for being in recovery and shedding our old skins and finding our identities.
I think that is, um, a human desire and a human thing, but I think you've had some extra challenges in your, in your background, in your history. And I'm really proud of you for. Overcoming them and becoming who you are. And I really liked this person that you are. So maybe we'll have more conversations following this, but thank you so much for your time today in the show notes, I'll put all the information so everyone can support you everywhere you are and follow you and vote and, um, you know, your AIDS, your HIV organization and your trans organization and, um, be supportive and helpful in every single way that we can.
really appreciate that. And I appreciate you and congrats again on seven years. That's an awesome
Thank you so much.
Take care.
nnie
